ADHD is 'not a real disease'

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ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#1  Postby the_5th_ape » Apr 01, 2014 5:20 am

Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder is not a real disease, a leading neuroscientist has claimed

ADHD is no more than a collection of symptoms and should not be considered a "real disease", a leading American neuroscientist has claimed.

Dr Bruce Perry told The Observer the definition of the condition is so broad virtually anyone could claim to be experiencing at least some of the symptoms at any given time.

Doctors are too quick to prescribe "psychostimulant" drugs to children when evidence suggests there may not be any long-term benefits, he added.

Prescriptions for the drugs, such as Ritalin, have risen from 420,000 in 2007 to 657,000 in 2012 – an increase of 56 per cent.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/child ... laims.html
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#2  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Apr 01, 2014 5:50 am

Hence why the D stands for "disorder" and not "disease".

Again the headline is misleading. Bravo to 5th for being consistent... :clap:

This isn't some doctor making an outrageous medical claim. No one has really ever claimed that it was a "disease". The Neurologist is simply giving his opinion regarding doctors who treat it as though it were a disease. Something I would agree with, although there are always some edge cases so extreme that medication may be the only option available.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#3  Postby The_Metatron » Apr 01, 2014 6:00 am

I have one cryptic thing to say about that: Ivarch.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#4  Postby Acetone » Apr 01, 2014 6:18 am

A disorder can be thought of as something which can not be physically tested for. If someone has ADHD it is not because there was some sort of medical test conducted and the lab results showed the person had ADHD. No, it was because some psychiatrist interpreted some symptoms, in a certain way, over a certain length of time (different depending on country and which diagnosis manual is used ie. ICD vs DSM). This is at least what I've learnt in school (disorder vs. disease).

What some psychiatrist would like people to believe is that such disorders are caused by let's say a chemical imbalance which can be corrected by medication. This is not true, because if it did manifest in a chemical imbalance we should be able to test for it. I'm not really up-to-date on ADHD research but I've never read a paper that supported this notion.

Don't get me wrong, medication can certainly help. But it helps by causing a chemical imbalance changing how a person acts... not by fixing an imbalance. In my opinion it should only ever be used for extreme cases.

Let's make something clear though: your title is a bit disingenuous. It seems as if you're trying to pass it off as if ADHD is not a real thing. It is. Also, I think the neruoscientist's claim is a bit stupid, by definition of it being a disorder it is going to be a collection of symptoms. That's not what makes it 'not a disease'. It's not a disease because it's not a disease.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#5  Postby mrjonno » Apr 01, 2014 8:27 am

Hence why the D stands for "disorder" and not "disease".


Because in the real world there is a difference?

The reality is a diagnosis of ADHD can mean a life time on relatively generous benefits (far more than job seekers) and parental responsibilities being moved from themselves to doctors for a significant number of cases.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#6  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2014 8:41 am

Whatever disorder you have (and everybody has one!) reading the health pages of a major newspaper will eventually make it worse. For real insight into the human condition, read National Enquirer.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#7  Postby The_Metatron » Apr 01, 2014 12:32 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:Whatever disorder you have (and everybody has one!) reading the health pages of a major newspaper will eventually make it worse. For real insight into the human condition, read National Enquirer.

..while watching Cops.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#8  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2014 1:23 pm

The_Metatron wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:Whatever disorder you have (and everybody has one!) reading the health pages of a major newspaper will eventually make it worse. For real insight into the human condition, read National Enquirer.

..while watching Cops.



... in Albuquerque.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#9  Postby Blackadder » Apr 01, 2014 1:50 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:Whatever disorder you have (and everybody has one!) reading the health pages of a major newspaper will eventually make it worse. For real insight into the human condition, read National Enquirer.

..while watching Cops.



... in Albuquerque.


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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#10  Postby Imza » Apr 01, 2014 4:12 pm

I agree that he is confusing disease and disorder but I don't think he is completely wrong. ADHD is a "real" thing in the sense that we categories people on a normal curve and those who are sufficiently abnormal can be classified as being in the disorder range. I don't think this method is necessarily wrong but it is different from certain medical conditions where we can identify specific physiological markers/causes that least to the disease/disorder. However, what neither of these address is whether or not there actually are functional impairments to the person who meets classification criteria. For me, unless there actually are functional impairment, as perceived by the person or society, we shouldn't classify ADHD as a disorder.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#11  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2014 5:02 pm

Imza wrote:we categories people on a normal curve


A curve of WTF? If you don't know, then you're talking woo.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#12  Postby Imza » Apr 01, 2014 5:58 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Imza wrote:we categories people on a normal curve


A curve of WTF? If you don't know, then you're talking woo.

Whatever the relevant behavioral variable is and how it's distributed.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#13  Postby mrjonno » Apr 01, 2014 6:19 pm

Does ADHD need medical intervention is the real question, not whether its a disease or a disorder (which in general terms is the same thing)
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#14  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2014 6:32 pm

Imza wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Imza wrote:we categories people on a normal curve


A curve of WTF? If you don't know, then you're talking woo.

Whatever the relevant behavioral variable is and how it's distributed.


Hey, hey. Mr. Tautology to the rescue. I admit, my question was a rhetorical one, and you simply demonstrate that a rhetorical question calls the bluff in this case.

Since this is a thread about ADHD, why don't you strut your stuff and give us the relevant behavioural variable; be sure to let us know how it's distributed.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#15  Postby Imza » Apr 01, 2014 6:40 pm

mrjonno wrote:Does ADHD need medical intervention is the real question, not whether its a disease or a disorder (which in general terms is the same thing)


Well why limit it to medical disorder? There are psychological interventions that work as well and the combination works even better for most. I think we can expand to ask "is there something we need to intervene with, medical or otherwise, whether we call it disease or disorder or something else".

Cito
Hey, hey. Mr. Tautology to the rescue. I admit, my question was a rhetorical one, and you simply demonstrate that a rhetorical question calls the bluff in this case.

Since this is a thread about ADHD, why don't you strut your stuff and give us the relevant behavioural variable; be sure to let us know how it's distributed.


Considering I was just mentioning how people actually view the disorders, I don't really care to hunt down data on how ADHD variables are distributed for you. If your interested in how levels of inattention and hyperactivity are distributed, a quick google search should get you the results.

My point was that it doesn't actually matter how it's distributed or even if we find some underlying physiological marker for ADHD, to me all that matters is if there is a functional impairment that the person needs assistance with and can we provide it. I'm not interested in if we call it ADHD or if we talk about "Is it real".
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#16  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2014 6:43 pm

Imza wrote:If your interested in how levels of inattention and hyperactivity are distributed...


Attention to what, man? I know there are people who collect lots of statistics about categories they make up in order to pursue research studies. I know you can say what the subject of attention might be, but you have to say what it is. Once you figure out what kind of attention ADHD studies are on about, we'll have more to discuss, and it will be about social institutions, and we can talk about how social institutions are distributed, too. Who watches the watchers, Imza?
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#17  Postby DavidMcC » Apr 01, 2014 6:47 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Imza wrote:If your interested in how levels of inattention and hyperactivity are distributed...


Attention to what, man? I know there are people who collect lots of statistics about categories they make up in order to pursue research studies. I know you can say what the subject of attention might be, but you have to say what it is. Once you figure out what kind of attention ADHD studies are on about, we'll have more to discuss, and it will be about social institutions.

I always assumed that it was whatever they were supposed/expected to be paying attention to, so there is no issue over the subject.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#18  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 01, 2014 8:11 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Imza wrote:If your interested in how levels of inattention and hyperactivity are distributed...


Attention to what, man? I know there are people who collect lots of statistics about categories they make up in order to pursue research studies. I know you can say what the subject of attention might be, but you have to say what it is. Once you figure out what kind of attention ADHD studies are on about, we'll have more to discuss, and it will be about social institutions.

I always assumed that it was whatever they were supposed/expected to be paying attention to, so there is no issue over the subject.


Supposed? By whom? Lot of suppositions going on in this thread. One could even venture to say that this thread is becoming a suppository.
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#19  Postby surreptitious57 » Apr 01, 2014 8:20 pm

mrjonno wrote:
Does ADHD need medical intervention is the real question not whether
its a disease or a disorder ( which in general terms is the same thing )

A disease is biological and a disorder is psychological
and so they are most definitely not the same thing
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Re: ADHD is 'not a real disease'

#20  Postby Beatsong » Apr 01, 2014 8:40 pm

Imza wrote:I agree that he is confusing disease and disorder but I don't think he is completely wrong. ADHD is a "real" thing in the sense that we categories people on a normal curve and those who are sufficiently abnormal can be classified as being in the disorder range. I don't think this method is necessarily wrong but it is different from certain medical conditions where we can identify specific physiological markers/causes that least to the disease/disorder.


Yes. Glad to see you recognise the difference as people in psychology often don't seem to.

For me, the problem is the degree of subjectivity and circularity in how we choose to categorise things in the first place. Yes, you can categorise a particular set of symptoms together and define a position on one end of the bell curve of thaat categorisation as being ADHD. Does this mean ADHD is "real"?

Well, obviously people vary in the symptoms being studied, so they total variance in their symptoms taken together, that qualifies some for a diagnosis, is "real". But then if I wanted to, I could invent a disorder called "Wee Wee Wanna Shag Hangover Disorder", based on (a) how well someone is able to suppress the need to urinate, (b) how often they fantasize about sex, and (c) how prone they are to hangovers. Since all these things tend to affect concentration and task application, it would be likely that those at one end of the bell curve for my disorder would suffer some impairment from it. Does that make it "real"?

I suppose there are a few different meanings of real here. The problem with psychological disorders is that we can't actually see the thing causing the disorder in operation, like we can see cancer cells or a broken bone. The the decision about what we bring under the umbrella of the disorder is much more open, and open to dispute. (Eg the fact that Aspergers has now, according to the DSM, ceased to exist as a discrete thing and become one with autism spectrum disorder). It can be hard in these situations to take the phenomenon as the objective reality that it's something claimed to be.

However, what neither of these address is whether or not there actually are functional impairments to the person who meets classification criteria. For me, unless there actually are functional impairment, as perceived by the person or society, we shouldn't classify ADHD as a disorder.


The diagnostic criteria are pretty clear on that point, as they are for most disorders. From the DSM-V:

Some hyperactive-impulsive or inattentive symptoms that caused impairment were present before age 7.

Some impairment from the symptoms is present in two or more settings (e.g., at school [or work] and at home).

There must be clear evidence of clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.


And that's the point at the end of the day. The point of these things is to help people who are suffering.
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