Brain Gender

And other gender spectra

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

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Re: Brain Gender

#21  Postby THWOTH » Sep 30, 2023 2:35 pm

jamest wrote:
THWOTH wrote:
For 'innate' do you mean 'physiological'?

Identity is complex and multifaceted...

To be clear, I have no problem with people identifying themselves however they like as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I only joined the discussion because I am of the opinion that however one feels about one's identity, the claim that it is intrinsic to their being (innate) is highly problematical from my rational perspective.

However, I do acknowledge that we are born with specific innate qualities (including perhaps a base personality which will determine how we will think about and emotionalize our lives wrt the external world) and that some of these qualities may indeed contribute to how one eventually feels about its identity. However, I do think that a specific outcome to that process is not inevitable and probably highly contingent upon the society and interactions that one will experience. Indeed, the quality of one's experiences may perhaps be sufficient enough to change one's 'base personality'. I'm thinking about abused kids or war, for instance. In such instances, how one identifies oneself may lead to an entirely different outcome.

The bottom-line, imo, is that any identity gleaned and then 'felt' relative to things within experience cannot be labelled as intrinsic or innate. Though I do accept that the issue is indeed complex and multifaceted.

Aye. The social component of identity is a significant factor, and the Western tradition of two exclusive genders, though common, is not the only social model that is or has been applied.

See Third Gender (wikipedia), or Gender identity in other cultures (identiversity.org).
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Re: Brain Gender

#22  Postby THWOTH » Sep 30, 2023 2:44 pm

I'd also add that I think you're using the term 'intrinsic' in such a way as to imply permanence, unchangeability, discretely non-traversable, objective etc.

I might consider 'equestrian' to represent a fundamental aspect of my identity in some contexts, and 'jazz fan' to represent me in other contexts. Both could be intrinsic elements of my identity as some point, but at another point I might tire of both and abandon them.

However, on the whole gender identity runs much deeper than such mere preferences or inclinations - as you can probably confirm from your own experience. So from this we can say that the intrinsic elements of a person's identity can be fluid to a greater or lesser extent.
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Re: Brain Gender

#23  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 30, 2023 2:56 pm

Intrinsic =/= innate

intrinsic = contained within, characteristic of, essential to

innate = born with


Having feelings is intrinsic to being a human. No one suggested that X feeling is present from birth except you.
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Re: Brain Gender

#24  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 30, 2023 3:01 pm

THWOTH wrote:I'd also add that I think you're using the term 'intrinsic' in such a way as to imply permanence, unchangeability, discretely non-traversable, objective etc.

I might consider 'equestrian' to represent a fundamental aspect of my identity in some contexts, and 'jazz fan' to represent me in other contexts. Both could be intrinsic elements of my identity as some point, but at another point I might tire of both and abandon them.


And, of course, there's no suggestion therein that you were born with these characteristics.
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Re: Brain Gender

#25  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 30, 2023 3:13 pm

Aaaanyway, so about that video! :)
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Re: Brain Gender

#26  Postby Animavore » Sep 30, 2023 3:40 pm

It's a mind fuck to be honest.
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Re: Brain Gender

#27  Postby Evolving » Sep 30, 2023 4:06 pm

jamest wrote:On the other hand, one must examine external behaviour and definitions etc. to decide whether one feels like a male or female.


To allocate the conventional linguistic marker to those feelings: yes.

But if there are objective differences between male and female - and I'm assuming here that we agree that there are -, then sooner or later each individual is going to notice that he or she thinks, emotes, reacts, sees things, interacts, and so on, in a particular way, that resembles more closely the way one group thinks, emotes etc, whereas there is another group that this person resembles less closely - even if the person hasn't yet got a name for that. And if that person later learns "We call that: 'feminine' or 'masculine' ", then they will be able to use that word too. But the feeling comes first; the name later, if at all.

That said, it’s a bit hard to imagine anyone growing up in a society without being aware that there are these linguistic markers “male and “female”.
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Re: Brain Gender

#28  Postby THWOTH » Sep 30, 2023 4:31 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
THWOTH wrote:I'd also add that I think you're using the term 'intrinsic' in such a way as to imply permanence, unchangeability, discretely non-traversable, objective etc.

I might consider 'equestrian' to represent a fundamental aspect of my identity in some contexts, and 'jazz fan' to represent me in other contexts. Both could be intrinsic elements of my identity as some point, but at another point I might tire of both and abandon them.


And, of course, there's no suggestion therein that you were born with these characteristics.

Unless I was from a very long line of circus performers perhaps :)
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Re: Brain Gender

#29  Postby Spearthrower » Sep 30, 2023 4:46 pm

THWOTH wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
THWOTH wrote:I'd also add that I think you're using the term 'intrinsic' in such a way as to imply permanence, unchangeability, discretely non-traversable, objective etc.

I might consider 'equestrian' to represent a fundamental aspect of my identity in some contexts, and 'jazz fan' to represent me in other contexts. Both could be intrinsic elements of my identity as some point, but at another point I might tire of both and abandon them.


And, of course, there's no suggestion therein that you were born with these characteristics.

Unless I was from a very long line of circus performers perhaps :)


I did once meet a theist who told me that not only had he been born Christian, but also born a Conservative! :grin:
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Re: Brain Gender

#30  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 01, 2023 5:27 am

Animavore wrote:It's a mind fuck to be honest.


Glorious, innit?

Something that seems obvious now, but I just never considered, is how mothers effectively become genetic chimeras through the process of pregnancy. I wonder how much impact this has on a mother's future behavior and feelings.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2633676/

Cell Migration from Baby to Mother

Fetal cells migrate into the mother during pregnancy. Fetomaternal transfer probably occurs in all pregnancies and in humans the fetal cells can persist for decades.
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Re: Brain Gender

#31  Postby THWOTH » Oct 03, 2023 7:34 am

I wonder if there are hormonal markers that distinguish trans people from others of their assigned sex?
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Re: Brain Gender

#32  Postby jamest » Oct 03, 2023 2:23 pm

THWOTH wrote:I wonder if there are hormonal markers that distinguish trans people from others of their assigned sex?

You think there might be chemicals which can make you change your mind about what gender you are?
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Re: Brain Gender

#33  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 03, 2023 3:30 pm

What medical treatments aside from surgery are there for gender dysphoria? Hormone therapy.

But you've got it the wrong way round. What produces hormones?

Watch the video jamest. It's less than 50 minutes long, by a leading expert in a highly specialist, cutting edge field and you will come away better informed.
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Re: Brain Gender

#34  Postby Evolving » Oct 03, 2023 4:20 pm

jamest wrote:
THWOTH wrote:I wonder if there are hormonal markers that distinguish trans people from others of their assigned sex?

You think there might be chemicals which can make you change your mind about what gender you are?


I suspect he wonders whether the hormones produced by the body are chemically different from those administered medically: through their chirality, perhaps.

Dunno.

EDIT: Ah, no: "assigned sex". I didn't read properly. Can you tell, from the body's hormones, that what is apparently, say, a cis woman is really a trans man? Because, say, more testosterone?

Again, dunno (but I suspect not).

SECOND EDIT: It's irrelevant now (because of the first edit), but they can't differ in chirality, because the administered hormones wouldn't dock on to the receptors in the cells. (Speculates this non-chemist.)
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Re: Brain Gender

#35  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 03, 2023 5:16 pm

Hormones like testosterone and estrogen are produced by both men and women, and are chemically identical. The differences are the amount produced, how it's used by the body, and what part of the body produces it. So testosterone and other androgens are present in higher amounts in men (15 times as much iirc), testosterone in men is mainly produced in the testes but in ovaries, adrenal glands, fat and skin cells in women, and women's bodies convert androgens into female sex hormones while men's bodies use it directly for many processes including red blood cells, body hair, and sperm production, and muscle growth.

Not saying this is what Thwoth meant, but there could be imbalances in hormonal levels that arise as a result of chromosomal irregularities, and perhaps this too could be indicative of a biological basis for non-binarism.
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Re: Brain Gender

#36  Postby jamest » Oct 03, 2023 6:33 pm

Spearthrower wrote:What medical treatments aside from surgery are there for gender dysphoria? Hormone therapy.

The treatments are to prohibit and/or promote certain biological changes. The feeling of being another gender is already there prior to treatment. The question is whether people with those feelings already have irregular hormone levels prior to any treatment and whether the hormones themselves are the agents for those feelings.


But you've got it the wrong way round. What produces hormones?

Watch the video jamest. It's less than 50 minutes long, by a leading expert in a highly specialist, cutting edge field and you will come away better informed.

I'll be very surprised if the questions I have asked in this thread are addressed in that video?
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Re: Brain Gender

#37  Postby Evolving » Oct 03, 2023 7:11 pm

Look at us, wondering what THWOTH meant. Is this what theology feels like?
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Re: Brain Gender

#38  Postby THWOTH » Oct 03, 2023 11:09 pm

Evolving wrote:
jamest wrote:
THWOTH wrote:I wonder if there are hormonal markers that distinguish trans people from others of their assigned sex?

You think there might be chemicals which can make you change your mind about what gender you are?


I suspect he wonders whether the hormones produced by the body are chemically different from those administered medically: through their chirality, perhaps.

Dunno.

EDIT: Ah, no: "assigned sex". I didn't read properly. Can you tell, from the body's hormones, that what is apparently, say, a cis woman is really a trans man? Because, say, more testosterone?

Again, dunno (but I suspect not).

SECOND EDIT: It's irrelevant now (because of the first edit), but they can't differ in chirality, because the administered hormones wouldn't dock on to the receptors in the cells. (Speculates this non-chemist.)
Thanks.
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Re: Brain Gender

#39  Postby THWOTH » Oct 03, 2023 11:12 pm

Spearthrower wrote:...
Not saying this is what Thwoth meant, but there could be imbalances in hormonal levels that arise as a result of chromosomal irregularities, and perhaps this too could be indicative of a biological basis for non-binarism.

That's the kind of thing I was wondering about.
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Re: Brain Gender

#40  Postby Spearthrower » Oct 04, 2023 2:52 am

jamest wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:What medical treatments aside from surgery are there for gender dysphoria? Hormone therapy.

The treatments are to prohibit and/or promote certain biological changes. The feeling of being another gender is already there prior to treatment. The question is whether people with those feelings already have irregular hormone levels prior to any treatment and whether the hormones themselves are the agents for those feelings.


But you've got it the wrong way round. What produces hormones?

Watch the video jamest. It's less than 50 minutes long, by a leading expert in a highly specialist, cutting edge field and you will come away better informed.

I'll be very surprised if the questions I have asked in this thread are addressed in that video?



Do you enjoy being willfully ignorant?

I tell you what - don't bother answering cos I don't care.
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