Taking responsibility for one's actions

is this possible for a free will denier?

Studies of mental functions, behaviors and the nervous system.

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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#521  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 12, 2017 1:12 pm

archibald wrote:Penny, one thing I don't like about the notion of free will, or if you prefer one thing I like about the notion that it doesn't exist, is that it, er, frees up my thinking about certain things, or potentially does. I'm prone to blame, both self-blame (I'm fairly self-critical) and blame of other (eg my parents, other people, whatever). A lot of this is predicated on the fact that I or they could have done something else.


I very well understand that you might or might not like something, but so what? The rest is psychobabble, fee-fees. I take the Zen route, here. If you're going to blame somebody for something, do it with the entirety of your being. Write them off. Erase their names from the writings on the tablet of your heart. It's like an Etch-a-Sketch. Just doodle them in again. You're just doodling.

archibald wrote:Holding fast to the idea of free will seems to make forgiveness harder.


Now listen to Bob Dylan sing about how he might have stayed in Mississippi a day too long.
Last edited by Cito di Pense on Jan 12, 2017 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#522  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 12, 2017 1:13 pm

archibald wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:Arch, I'm curious... where are you on the side of "life is pointless"?


Thank goodness you asked a sensible question. Things were getting silly.

I have a nuanced version of where you are. The only point to life is the point that you give it. That you might not be giving it is one half of the doublethink. Perhaps slightly better to say that the only point in life is the point that you get from it, with a caveat that the word 'you' may also refer to an illuson.

:rofl:
It's the caveat, archi.
If "you" are an illusion, then who's having the illusion?
May The Voice be with you!
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#523  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 12, 2017 1:15 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
If "you" are an illusion, then who's having the illusion?


:thumbup:
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#524  Postby archibald » Jan 12, 2017 1:16 pm

DavidMcC wrote:It's the caveat, archi.
If "you" are an illusion, then who's having the illusion?


Indeed. Strictly-speaking, no one.

The system is just experiencing stuff.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#525  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 12, 2017 1:18 pm

archibald wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:It's the caveat, archi.
If "you" are an illusion, then who's having the illusion?


Indeed. Strictly-speaking, no one.


You probably tend to think of me more as an 'occlusion'. :mrgreen:
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Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#526  Postby archibald » Jan 12, 2017 1:21 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:You probably tend to think of me more as an 'occlusion'. :mrgreen:


That word has too many meanings for me to understand what you mean.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#527  Postby archibald » Jan 12, 2017 1:23 pm

What I mean is, I'm more complicated than an amoeba, but there's no special sauce. An amoeba interacts with other organisms. It (probably) just doesn't have any woo. We have woo.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#528  Postby archibald » Jan 12, 2017 1:26 pm

Image
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#529  Postby Pebble » Jan 12, 2017 1:34 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
If you just like to argue for the sake of argument, well, we're doing just that.


Indeed a worthwhile observation. And I though we were solving the problems of the world.

Good to see how much futility has mushroomed in the past 6 hours, in this thread.

Cito di Pense wrote:
I see no evidence of you either writing compelling prose or organizing your thoughts.


Would I waste the required effort in a forum?
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#530  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 12, 2017 1:37 pm

archibald wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:It's the caveat, archi.
If "you" are an illusion, then who's having the illusion?


Indeed. Strictly-speaking, no one.

The system is just experiencing stuff.

A "system just experiencing stuff"?
How can such a system make rational decisions, if all it can do is "experience stuff"?
May The Voice be with you!
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#531  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 12, 2017 1:39 pm

archibald wrote:Penny, one thing I don't like about the notion of free will, or if you prefer one thing I like about the notion that it doesn't exist, is that it, er, frees up my thinking about certain things, or potentially does. I'm prone to blame, both self-blame (I'm fairly self-critical) and blame of other (eg my parents, other people, whatever). A lot of this is predicated on the fact that I or they could have done something else.


Gotta say, Arch... I love your honesty. You really put yourself out there for all to see.

First, just so you are clear on my "defense" of FW. I'm not defending a hard stance that FW exists. But, I do defend that we have choices and make choices everyday. I realize that's kind of a moot point because there is really no hard evidence for it. I just want you to know that I don't pretend to think we have nearly as much control in our lives as some of us like to think we do. I just don't think we have zero control either.

I recognize what you describe. Maybe I've had a taste of it in my life. :ask: My entire family has disowned me for my beliefs. It almost happened earlier in my life when I chose to cohabitate with someone instead of marrying first. That's how deep in belief my family is. They got past the cohabitation but that was apparently their limit.

For me, it never occurred to me that we didn't have choices in life. The hours I spent contemplating, blaming, crying... ugh... must be well into the thousands. I finally achieved some measure of reconciliation with the turmoil in my head through cogitation, like you. Where you landed is determinism. I didn't know about determinism... just never occurred to me. I went a different route. I'll skip the gory details, but I realize people are just people. They will act the way they will, much like a lioness will hunt for meat. Whether she has rabbit for dinner or gazelle is irrelevant. 'Why' she has 'what' is even less relevant. Is it good or bad that she eats meat is irrelevant. She ate meat. That is all that is relevant. It only matters to me if I AM the meat... or perhaps someone I love. No need for blaming the lioness for what she does... she has her own concept, if any, of 'right' and 'wrong.' And it most certainly won't agree with my idea of right and wrong, if I have any notion of it at all. The lioness just does what she does. You do what you do. Only one of those you have any control over... If you don't want to be the dinner of some lioness and her pride, stay out of the damn jungle. You know what's at risk and what, if anything is to be gained by going in. That's a choice.

Even if you disagree with that sentiment, it at least illustrates that there are alternate ways of thinking that may be of more use. Consider that if the current way of thinking just keeps looping you into the same recurrent thoughts.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#532  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 12, 2017 1:42 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
archibald wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:It's the caveat, archi.
If "you" are an illusion, then who's having the illusion?


Indeed. Strictly-speaking, no one.


You probably tend to think of me more as an 'occlusion'. :mrgreen:


This is precious! :lol:
Evolution saddens me. In an environment where irrational thinking is protected, the disparity in the population rate of creationists vs that of rational thinkers, equates to a creationist win. Let's remove warning labels from products as an equalizer.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#533  Postby archibald » Jan 12, 2017 2:12 pm

DavidMcC wrote:A "system just experiencing stuff"?
How can such a system make rational decisions, if all it can do is "experience stuff"?


I didn't say all it could do is experience stuff. I was referring to the sense of self only at that point.

As to whether the system can make rational decisions.......hm....I think the word 'rational' is up for grabs there. But, setting that aside, the system can make decisions. It just isn't a self that's making them, imo. Lots of systems make decisions without a 'self'. Poodles are probably an example.
Last edited by archibald on Jan 12, 2017 2:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#534  Postby archibald » Jan 12, 2017 2:17 pm

PensivePenny wrote:....That's a choice.


Feels like a choice. :)

I only discuss free will on forums. Day to day, I live in what I suspect is the illusion. I make choices etc etc. Don't think that it freezes me up or keeps me going in loops. It's just a fun topic to discuss. And sometimes it gives insights. Sometimes they're helpful, such as when I was able to forgive my parents for stuff.

They fuck you up, your mum and dad, they don't mean to but they do. And all that.

I have to say that my folks never did anything to me which was on a par with yours. I would find that very very difficult to forgive. But maybe that's just me.
Last edited by archibald on Jan 12, 2017 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#535  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 12, 2017 2:20 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
archibald wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:Arch, I'm curious... where are you on the side of "life is pointless"?


Thank goodness you asked a sensible question. Things were getting silly.

I have a nuanced version of where you are. The only point to life is the point that you give it. That you might not be giving it is one half of the doublethink. Perhaps slightly better to say that the only point in life is the point that you get from it, with a caveat that the word 'you' may also refer to an illuson.

:rofl:
It's the caveat, archi.
If "you" are an illusion, then who's having the illusion?


Another perspective I'll add here:

What exactly is 'the illusion?' Reality? All we perceive? If one concludes, "this is all just an illusion," then what one 'concluded' can be no more real than the illusion it purports. Matter cannot spontaneously exist out of a dream? Why should Libet or Soon et al be anything more than an 'illusion?' If we are going to question the veracity of only those things with which we cannot accept, don't want to accept, or for what doesn't fit in with our 'world view,' then perhaps they're right. For them, it is an illusion by deliberate exclusion of what is real.

ala Pascal's wager, if reality is real and one thinks it an illusion, then they lose. If life is an illusion and one thinks it is real, then they will go to school, get married, have kids (get divorced, get married... etc) have a career, maybe a few friends, visit
Disney World... basically have a life of experiences.... Wondering if life is an illusion will not lead anywhere but "life is an illusion."
Evolution saddens me. In an environment where irrational thinking is protected, the disparity in the population rate of creationists vs that of rational thinkers, equates to a creationist win. Let's remove warning labels from products as an equalizer.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#536  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 12, 2017 2:33 pm

archibald wrote:
PensivePenny wrote:....That's a choice.


Feels like a choice. :)

Damn right it does ;)

I only discuss free will on forums. Day to day, I live in the illusion. I make choices etc etc. Don't think that it freezes me up or keeps me going in loops. It's just a fun topic to discuss. And sometimes it gives insights. Sometimes they're helpful, such as when I was able to forgive my parents for stuff.

Well, that's good to know. If denying free will is a thought experiment, just say so! Some people don't see it as a thought experiment. KiR, if I had to guess.

They fuck you up, your mum and dad, they don't mean to but they do. And all that.

I suppose they can. But, staying fucked up is a choice. ;) I've had my share of therapists. When I was around 20, I saw one for a traumatic event I experienced... He introduced me to the concept of reparenting. It's only so much psycho-babble as Cito will be quick to point out, but it did help me. I only saw the therapist a few times, but just being aware of the concept of reparenting, made me realize that I wasn't tethered to the shit my parent's taught me. I began to give myself 'permission' so to speak to be who I wanted to be, not who they wanted me to be. It was really just a simple tweak on realizing I had choices. :think:

I have to say that my folks never did anything to me which was on a par with yours. I would find that very very difficult to forgive. But maybe that's just me.

Nope... it's me too. I would have forgiven them at some point, but there's a point where, like Cito says, you have to Etch-a-Sketch them from your life. They actually damaged me more in disowning me than anything they did to me as a child, including indoctrination into the magic-man mystical tour. I suffered from being disowned, only as long as I held on to them in my mind.

ETA: I should note, I held on to my parents for far too long after being disowned. At any time during that time, a simple apology would have been enough for me to forgive them. Now, I'd simply tell them to fuck off... no matter how sorry they were. I wouldn't give them a nickel if it would save their life. They'd just have to find it themselves.
Evolution saddens me. In an environment where irrational thinking is protected, the disparity in the population rate of creationists vs that of rational thinkers, equates to a creationist win. Let's remove warning labels from products as an equalizer.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#537  Postby archibald » Jan 12, 2017 2:41 pm

PensivePenny wrote:Well, that's good to know. If denying free will is a thought experiment, just say so! Some people don't see it as a thought experiment. KiR, if I had to guess.


It's not just a thought experiment, unless you are happy to call my atheism a thought experiment too. :)

PensivePenny wrote:I suppose they can. But, staying fucked up is a choice.....


Aaargg! You keep saying that! :)

PensivePenny wrote: ;) I've had my share of therapists. When I was around 20, I saw one for a traumatic event I experienced... He introduced me to the concept of reparenting. It's only so much psycho-babble as Cito will be quick to point out, but it did help me. I only saw the therapist a few times, but just being aware of the concept of reparenting, made me realize that I wasn't tethered to the shit my parent's taught me. I began to give myself 'permission' so to speak to be who I wanted to be, not who they wanted me to be. It was really just a simple tweak on realizing I had choices. :think:


Nope... it's me too. I would have forgiven them at some point, but there's a point where, like Cito says, you have to Etch-a-Sketch them from your life. They actually damaged me more in disowning me than anything they did to me as a child, including indoctrination into the magic-man mystical tour. I suffered from being disowned, only as long as I held on to them in my mind.


I was never much good at etch-a-sketching stuff away. I don't think it works well like that. But, I accept that for some situations/predicaments, it's the only option.

Reparenting? I won't scoff. I've benefitted from what many people consider to be pseudoscientific psychoanalysis too many times to scoff. If it helped you to separate yourself (being colloquial here) from your parents' expectations, then that was a useful thing, I'm sure.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#538  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 12, 2017 2:43 pm

Aren't you choosing to believe you have no control?
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#539  Postby archibald » Jan 12, 2017 2:45 pm

PensivePenny wrote:Aren't you choosing to believe you have no control?


No, I don't believe I am.

You never give up, do you? :)

And Counting down...3...2....1.......Exhale. Let go.
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Re: Taking responsibility for one's actions

#540  Postby PensivePenny » Jan 12, 2017 2:48 pm

Give up? You make it sound like I'm trying to convince you to think my way. I'm not
Evolution saddens me. In an environment where irrational thinking is protected, the disparity in the population rate of creationists vs that of rational thinkers, equates to a creationist win. Let's remove warning labels from products as an equalizer.
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