Darwinsbulldog wrote:Yup, in my view it is. No gods in Buddhism, but there is belief in supernaturalism, such as souls without bodies and reincarnation.

statichaos wrote:

Darwinsbulldog wrote:Yup, in my view it is. No gods in Buddhism, but there is belief in supernaturalism, such as souls without bodies and reincarnation.

Not in all versions. Zen does not require belief in either.

Darwinsbulldog wrote:

statichaos wrote:

Darwinsbulldog wrote:Yup, in my view it is. No gods in Buddhism, but there is belief in supernaturalism, such as souls without bodies and reincarnation.

Not in all versions. Zen does not require belief in either.

Then I stand corrected, but if there is woo in Zen, I will surely find it!

Wiðercora wrote:Find a definition of religion, and see if Buddhism fits the criteria?

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

— re·li·gion·less adjective

statichaos wrote:

Darwinsbulldog wrote:

statichaos wrote:

Darwinsbulldog wrote:Yup, in my view it is. No gods in Buddhism, but there is belief in supernaturalism, such as souls without bodies and reincarnation.

Not in all versions. Zen does not require belief in either.

Then I stand corrected, but if there is woo in Zen, I will surely find it!

Good luck with that. A couple of hours with Zen koans and I felt like I'd put my mind through a blender.

Darwinsbulldog wrote:Yup, in my view it is. No gods in Buddhism, but there is belief in supernaturalism, such as souls without bodies and reincarnation.

Ilovelucy wrote:

I love Zen koans, and the Zen infused poetry of Dogen and Basho. Like poetry, Zen is profoundly stimulating and immersive, while at the same time it is utterly useless and not for everybody.

nunnington wrote:Ilovelucy

When you say Zen is useless, it depends on what you mean by Zen. I've been doing Zen practice for 30 years, and I find it pretty useful for various things. In fact, you could say it has changed my life, since it enabled me to burst through the paper hoop of 'life', and other illusions. Not bad, eh? But I guess, yes, this is all complete nonsense!

"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.

No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.

No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."

- Visuddhimagga XVI 90

nunnington wrote:notself

Or even - no path.

nunnington wrote:notself

I remember a few years ago reading a Zen poem which contained the line, 'neither I nor the world exist', and I felt both nauseous, exhilarated, and relieved. Ah, that was what had been bugging me for 40 years! I could let go.