Womens appearance in elite sports

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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#41  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Mar 02, 2014 12:45 pm

TMB wrote:
Ihavenofingerprints wrote:
TMB wrote:
What is also relevant and as commentators point out that these women are not just expected to excel in their sport but also present an expected level of beauty, and the same does not apply to male athletes. However women athletes are not required to perform to the same level as male athletes, and are still able to be recognized with ultimate awards despite the fact they are protected because they are women and have their own event. If men were to be subject to the same pressures about their appearance as women are, something that runs deep in the makeup of both men and women, would we also require that women are treated equally to men in terms of athletic and sports ability. Once again this is unlikely to ever happen, as while it would offer gender equity in terms of events the social impact of disenfranchising women from this sort of protection would not be tolerated.


If you don't mind me asking, what is your main point here?

Are you arguing that giving women their own sport events goes against the idea of men/women equality?


I am asking why a female swimmer considers it unfair that she feels pressure to look better because she is female and men are not subject to the same judgement, while at the same time the only reason she is considered an elite athlete is because women have been given their own event because if sex discrimination was removed and sex neutral events only existed - ie. fastest 100m freestyle, women would be eliminated. It seems to me she want her cake and eat it to.

The underlying fact is that there is sex discrimination in sport because women have lesser ability, so yes of course it goes against equal treatment of the sexes.


Are you suggesting that any women who participates in a women's sporting event is being hypocritical if they complain about sex discrimination in any other aspect of their life?

Even if they are being hypocritical, it doesn't justify the obsession with their looks. Sport is about fun and everyone having a go anyway, women aren't equal in the physical domain of most sports to men.
Last edited by Ihavenofingerprints on Mar 02, 2014 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#42  Postby Thommo » Mar 02, 2014 12:47 pm

TMB wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
TMB wrote:Tuco, you said,

TMB, you do know there's a big quote button on every post that you can use? This safes you the trouble of having to type X you wrote, every time and makes your posts clearer.


Yes I know and I am using it now, however I find it easier my way when trying to address multiple points in the same post.


You can cut and past the tag that appears around a quote to have multiple links to the same post correctly labeled. After you hit "quote" (you can even do that in a new tab or window) you just need to copy and paste the part inside the square brackets, e.g. in this post of yours I'm quoting the part that reads 'quote="TMB";p="1941144"'

Putting it in square brackets yields:-
TMB wrote:


And again with any old bollocks inside:
TMB wrote:TMB didn't actually write this.


You can also manually label a quote by putting quote="The person's name" inside a square bracket, but then it won't link to their original post, which acquires the additional p=... with the correct reference.

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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#43  Postby The_Piper » Mar 02, 2014 12:56 pm

You can also click "post reply" , scroll down and highlight the relevant text you want to quote, then click the "quote" link in the post you're quoting.
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#44  Postby TMB » Mar 02, 2014 1:02 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
TMB wrote:I am asking why a female swimmer considers it unfair that she feels pressure to look better

Can you show us where she says that this pressure is 'unfair'?


In the referenced article this was stated.
She also cited the inequalities of media scrutiny over the appearance of male athletes compared to female athletes.

"It’s hard for a woman. A woman has to deal with it – and that’s never easy.

"A guy doesn’t get comments on his weight or his looks."
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#45  Postby Doubtdispelled » Mar 02, 2014 1:02 pm

The_Piper wrote:You can also click "post reply"

Yep
The_Piper wrote:scroll down and highlight the relevant text you want to quote

Indeed
The_Piper wrote:then click the "quote" link in the post you're quoting.

That's what I do!

:cheers:
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#46  Postby The_Piper » Mar 02, 2014 1:11 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote: The_Piper wrote:You can also click "post reply"


Yep
:)
Doubtdispelled wrote: The_Piper wrote:scroll down and highlight the relevant text you want to quote


Indeed

The_Piper wrote:then click the "quote" link in the post you're quoting.


That's what I do!

:cheers:

:cheers:
It doesn't work well with quotes of quotes though.
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#47  Postby Doubtdispelled » Mar 02, 2014 1:17 pm

TMB wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
TMB wrote:I am asking why a female swimmer considers it unfair that she feels pressure to look better

Can you show us where she says that this pressure is 'unfair'?


In the referenced article this was stated.
She also cited the inequalities of media scrutiny over the appearance of male athletes compared to female athletes.

"It’s hard for a woman. A woman has to deal with it – and that’s never easy.

"A guy doesn’t get comments on his weight or his looks."

Yes, I know that. She spoke of inequalities. She said it's hard for a woman. But she didn't say it was unfair.

Incidentally....
TMB wrote:be accountable for any negative consequences upon others?

Just supposing for a moment that anyone agreed with this proposition, what form would you suggest this accountability should take?
TMB wrote:I see that women who do benefit from their looks do so with little conscience

I know! Let's all work at making these women feel guilty! That might take them down a peg or two. :plot:
TMB wrote:Men and women should be equally accountable for the trials of human society, yet men are usually held responsible and women are seen as the victims.

Then tell those men to down tools and hand society over to those poor victimised women. After all, shouldn't they too have a go at shrugging off responsibility? It's all so unfair! :waah:
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#48  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 02, 2014 1:17 pm

You can just copy-paste the specific bits. I don't see what's so hard about that?
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#49  Postby TMB » Mar 02, 2014 1:18 pm

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:
TMB wrote:
Ihavenofingerprints wrote:
TMB wrote:
What is also relevant and as commentators point out that these women are not just expected to excel in their sport but also present an expected level of beauty, and the same does not apply to male athletes. However women athletes are not required to perform to the same level as male athletes, and are still able to be recognized with ultimate awards despite the fact they are protected because they are women and have their own event. If men were to be subject to the same pressures about their appearance as women are, something that runs deep in the makeup of both men and women, would we also require that women are treated equally to men in terms of athletic and sports ability. Once again this is unlikely to ever happen, as while it would offer gender equity in terms of events the social impact of disenfranchising women from this sort of protection would not be tolerated.


If you don't mind me asking, what is your main point here?

Are you arguing that giving women their own sport events goes against the idea of men/women equality?


I am asking why a female swimmer considers it unfair that she feels pressure to look better because she is female and men are not subject to the same judgement, while at the same time the only reason she is considered an elite athlete is because women have been given their own event because if sex discrimination was removed and sex neutral events only existed - ie. fastest 100m freestyle, women would be eliminated. It seems to me she want her cake and eat it to.

The underlying fact is that there is sex discrimination in sport because women have lesser ability, so yes of course it goes against equal treatment of the sexes.


Are you suggesting that any women who participates in a women's sporting event is being hypocritical if they complain about sex discrimination in any other aspect of their life?


No I am suggesting that when she considers it is not a level playing field between men and women when it comes to being judged upon your looks, that she takes into account the bigger picture of her position in the sport and sex equity. I am guessing it has never crossed her mind that as a woman she is getting benefits not due to her ability but to her sex.

I recall hearing an elite female marathon runner note that she nearly upset (and planned) the race organisers of the Comrades marathon when she thought she might finish in the top ten overall of both men and women, where prizes were listed as 'the first 10 men' on the assumption that women were not capable of making the top ten. She was placed 15 one year and she felt that this was discrimination and she should be allowed to get one of the gold medals for a top 10 finisher even though she was a woman. I asked her if they should remove all sex discrimination from the race, to which she replied 'yes'. I then pointed out that this would not recognise any of the women in any special way since her performance was exceptional and other women would lag far behind the men. She had not looked at it from that angle.

Even if they are being hypocritical, it doesn't justify the obsession with their looks. Sport is about fun and everyone having a go anyway, women aren't equal in the physical domain of most sports to men.


I am not judging the moral aspect of being judged upon ones looks and since many people, many women earn their living based upon their looks, I am guessing this is just a subjective prejudice. People will take advanateg of their looks when it suits them, when it does not, they will cry foul.

Elite sport is not about fun, it is about winning and people will make huge sacrifices in health, family to win. For elite athletes the hunger to win can consume everything in its path. People who play sport for fun do not have the mindset that is required to play at the top level of any game.
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#50  Postby TMB » Mar 02, 2014 1:24 pm

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:
TMB wrote:
Ihavenofingerprints wrote:
TMB wrote:
What is also relevant and as commentators point out that these women are not just expected to excel in their sport but also present an expected level of beauty, and the same does not apply to male athletes. However women athletes are not required to perform to the same level as male athletes, and are still able to be recognized with ultimate awards despite the fact they are protected because they are women and have their own event. If men were to be subject to the same pressures about their appearance as women are, something that runs deep in the makeup of both men and women, would we also require that women are treated equally to men in terms of athletic and sports ability. Once again this is unlikely to ever happen, as while it would offer gender equity in terms of events the social impact of disenfranchising women from this sort of protection would not be tolerated.


If you don't mind me asking, what is your main point here?

Are you arguing that giving women their own sport events goes against the idea of men/women equality?


I am asking why a female swimmer considers it unfair that she feels pressure to look better because she is female and men are not subject to the same judgement, while at the same time the only reason she is considered an elite athlete is because women have been given their own event because if sex discrimination was removed and sex neutral events only existed - ie. fastest 100m freestyle, women would be eliminated. It seems to me she want her cake and eat it to.

The underlying fact is that there is sex discrimination in sport because women have lesser ability, so yes of course it goes against equal treatment of the sexes.


Are you suggesting that any women who participates in a women's sporting event is being hypocritical if they complain about sex discrimination in any other aspect of their life?


No I am suggesting that when she considers it is not a level playing field between men and women when it comes to being judged upon your looks, that she takes into account the bigger picture of her position in the sport and sex equity. I am guessing it has never crossed her mind that as a woman she is getting benefits not due to her ability but to her sex.

I recall hearing an elite female marathon runner note that she nearly upset (and planned) the race organisers of the Comrades marathon when she thought she might finish in the top ten overall of both men and women, where prizes were listed as 'the first 10 men' on the assumption that women were not capable of making the top ten. She was placed 15 one year and she felt that this was discrimination and she should be allowed to get one of the gold medals for a top 10 finisher even though she was a woman. I asked her if they should remove all sex discrimination from the race, to which she replied 'yes'. I then pointed out that this would not recognise any of the women in any special way since her performance was exceptional and other women would lag far behind the men. She had not looked at it from that angle.

Even if they are being hypocritical, it doesn't justify the obsession with their looks. Sport is about fun and everyone having a go anyway, women aren't equal in the physical domain of most sports to men.


I am not judging the moral aspect of being judged upon ones looks and since many people, many women earn their living based upon their looks, I am guessing this is just a subjective prejudice. People will take advanateg of their looks when it suits them, when it does not, they will cry foul.

Elite sport is not about fun, it is about winning and people will make huge sacrifices in health, family to win. For elite athletes the hunger to win can consume everything in its path. People who play sport for fun do not have the mindset that is required to play at the top level of any game.
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#51  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Mar 02, 2014 1:32 pm

Who says the female swimmer in question enters the women's 100m freestyle because she wants equality with men? She probably knows by entering she is admitting she doesn't have the ability to compete with the best athletes in the world.

In which case it wouldn't be hypocritical to complain about an obsession with her looks (relative to her male colleagues).
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#52  Postby Nicko » Mar 02, 2014 1:37 pm

TMB wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
TMB wrote:I am asking why a female swimmer considers it unfair that she feels pressure to look better

Can you show us where she says that this pressure is 'unfair'?


In the referenced article this was stated.
She also cited the inequalities of media scrutiny over the appearance of male athletes compared to female athletes.

"It’s hard for a woman. A woman has to deal with it – and that’s never easy.

"A guy doesn’t get comments on his weight or his looks."


The relevance of a female athlete's looks is clearly going to be in regards to sponsorship. It's not like female athletes are - as far as I am aware, anyway - being excluded from competition until they get a nose job or something. It's about the image of the athlete in the mass media being linked to their ability to promote products.

And in this regard, male athletes have an advantage. Just by developing an athletic physique, a man is going to be regarded as more aesthetically pleasing. They've already made themselves "photogenic" as a side effect of their athletic training. Male physical attractiveness seems to be based - at least in part - upon attributes like strength, fitness and power. It is almost impossible for a man to develop the body of an athlete and not become more attractive in an aesthetic sense.

This is not the case with female athletes. Female attractiveness seems to be more based upon youth and facial architecture. It is entirely possible for a woman to become extremely physically fit without necessarily increasing her attractiveness in any sense that the mass media gives a fuck about.

It certainly throws up an extra hurdle for women in sports. Not as far as participation goes, but as far as making a career of it goes.
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#53  Postby TMB » Mar 02, 2014 11:46 pm

Thommo wrote:
TMB wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
TMB wrote:Tuco, you said,

TMB, you do know there's a big quote button on every post that you can use? This safes you the trouble of having to type X you wrote, every time and makes your posts clearer.


Yes I know and I am using it now, however I find it easier my way when trying to address multiple points in the same post.


You can cut and past the tag that appears around a quote to have multiple links to the same post correctly labeled. After you hit "quote" (you can even do that in a new tab or window) you just need to copy and paste the part inside the square brackets, e.g. in this post of yours I'm quoting the part that reads 'quote="TMB";p="1941144"'

Putting it in square brackets yields:-
TMB wrote:


And again with any old bollocks inside:
TMB wrote:TMB didn't actually write this.


You can also manually label a quote by putting quote="The person's name" inside a square bracket, but then it won't link to their original post, which acquires the additional p=... with the correct reference.

Some guy wrote:Someone once said...


Thanks I will see if I can improve my skills.
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#54  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Mar 02, 2014 11:49 pm

TMB wrote:
Thommo wrote:
TMB wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
TMB, you do know there's a big quote button on every post that you can use? This safes you the trouble of having to type X you wrote, every time and makes your posts clearer.


Yes I know and I am using it now, however I find it easier my way when trying to address multiple points in the same post.


You can cut and past the tag that appears around a quote to have multiple links to the same post correctly labeled. After you hit "quote" (you can even do that in a new tab or window) you just need to copy and paste the part inside the square brackets, e.g. in this post of yours I'm quoting the part that reads 'quote="TMB";p="1941144"'

Putting it in square brackets yields:-
TMB wrote:


And again with any old bollocks inside:
TMB wrote:TMB didn't actually write this.


You can also manually label a quote by putting quote="The person's name" inside a square bracket, but then it won't link to their original post, which acquires the additional p=... with the correct reference.

Some guy wrote:Someone once said...


Thanks I will see if I can improve my skills.

:thumbup:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#55  Postby TMB » Mar 03, 2014 12:57 am

Nicko, you said,
The relevance of a female athlete's looks is clearly going to be in regards to sponsorship. It's not like female athletes are - as far as I am aware, anyway - being excluded from competition until they get a nose job or something. It's about the image of the athlete in the mass media being linked to their ability to promote products.

I agree, but as in the case of Anna Kournikova, she was able to leverage her looks yet was not the best player, the difference with males athletes is that their looks will be leveraged providing they are at the top of the game. Their value is more dependent upon their ability.

And in this regard, male athletes have an advantage. Just by developing an athletic physique, a man is going to be regarded as more aesthetically pleasing. They've already made themselves "photogenic" as a side effect of their athletic training. Male physical attractiveness seems to be based - at least in part - upon attributes like strength, fitness and power. It is almost impossible for a man to develop the body of an athlete and not become more attractive in an aesthetic sense.

I partly agree, I think the males attractiveness is linked to their success in the sport just like people find Woody Allen sexy because he has charisma and talent but no aesthetic appeal. A woman similarly endowed would have no chance of being seen as sexy, talented perhaps but no queues of admiring men. Status and power in men is physically attractive to women. This means that if the man is notat the top of his game his objective looks will fade in the eyes of the beholder just as a male with lesser physical looks but who is at the top of the game will be seen as more attractive in the eyes of the beholder.

This is not the case with female athletes. Female attractiveness seems to be more based upon youth and facial architecture. It is entirely possible for a woman to become extremely physically fit without necessarily increasing her attractiveness in any sense that the mass media gives a fuck about.

Agreed, the female body building industry spends a lot of time arguing the case of how sexy and feminine their performers are but generally men and other women do not find muscle bound women, with square male like features attractive or sexy. This is not too say that all women find muscle bound men to be attractive or sexy but a significant portion do and if they are someone like Arnold Schwartzeneger who have charisma and status they become even more attractive. As I noted earlier groupies is essentially a female behaviour. I have seen thousands of teenage girls (almost no males) line up to see a male performer, an equivalent female performer got far les interest and an even mix of male and female but no real hysteria or obsession

It certainly throws up an extra hurdle for women in sports. Not as far as participation goes, but as far as making a career of it goes

As I have noted, the major hurdle, that of performance relative to males, has been overcome by giving women their own event so they are poised to get the same benefits in some sports (swimmers, tennis, golf, athletics – however not in baseball, cricket, soccer, rugby etc). The added advantage if they have the looks is that they do not need to be the best to get benefit. However some will run into issues when their looks are judged and found wanting like a recent winner of a grandslam tennis tournament, or Serena Williams who gets compared to Sharapovas looks and comes off second best, although she wins more tournaments. The contention is between the women themselves, yet it gets thrown back as men somehow getting unfair benefit.
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#56  Postby TMB » Mar 03, 2014 6:42 am

Doubtdispelled wrote:
TMB wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
TMB wrote:I am asking why a female swimmer considers it unfair that she feels pressure to look better

Can you show us where she says that this pressure is 'unfair'?


In the referenced article this was stated.
She also cited the inequalities of media scrutiny over the appearance of male athletes compared to female athletes.

"It’s hard for a woman. A woman has to deal with it – and that’s never easy.

"A guy doesn’t get comments on his weight or his looks."

Yes, I know that. She spoke of inequalities. She said it's hard for a woman. But she didn't say it was unfair.

Incidentally....
TMB wrote:be accountable for any negative consequences upon others?

Just supposing for a moment that anyone agreed with this proposition, what form would you suggest this accountability should take?
TMB wrote:I see that women who do benefit from their looks do so with little conscience

I know! Let's all work at making these women feel guilty! That might take them down a peg or two. :plot:
TMB wrote:Men and women should be equally accountable for the trials of human society, yet men are usually held responsible and women are seen as the victims.

Then tell those men to down tools and hand society over to those poor victimised women. After all, shouldn't they too have a go at shrugging off responsibility? It's all so unfair! :waah:


You are making very little effort trying to rationally discuss this topic, but throwing in plenty of sarcastic comments. I get that this is an emotional and political topic but I dont see the point in engaging with you if you give nothing back on the points I make except negative emotion.
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#57  Postby Nicko » Mar 03, 2014 9:53 am

TMB wrote:Nicko, you said,
The relevance of a female athlete's looks is clearly going to be in regards to sponsorship. It's not like female athletes are - as far as I am aware, anyway - being excluded from competition until they get a nose job or something. It's about the image of the athlete in the mass media being linked to their ability to promote products.

I agree, but as in the case of Anna Kournikova, she was able to leverage her looks yet was not the best player, the difference with males athletes is that their looks will be leveraged providing they are at the top of the game. Their value is more dependent upon their ability.


Yep.

TMB wrote:
And in this regard, male athletes have an advantage. Just by developing an athletic physique, a man is going to be regarded as more aesthetically pleasing. They've already made themselves "photogenic" as a side effect of their athletic training. Male physical attractiveness seems to be based - at least in part - upon attributes like strength, fitness and power. It is almost impossible for a man to develop the body of an athlete and not become more attractive in an aesthetic sense.

I partly agree, I think the males attractiveness is linked to their success in the sport just like people find Woody Allen sexy because he has charisma and talent but no aesthetic appeal. A woman similarly endowed would have no chance of being seen as sexy, talented perhaps but no queues of admiring men. Status and power in men is physically attractive to women. This means that if the man is notat the top of his game his objective looks will fade in the eyes of the beholder just as a male with lesser physical looks but who is at the top of the game will be seen as more attractive in the eyes of the beholder.


So what you are talking about is hypergamy. Women are seen as "sex objects" while men are seen as "success objects".

Fair enough, but my point was that the differing standards of beauty in men and women tend to mean that a man who develops a physique that enables him to compete at an elite level in any sport or athletic activity will increase his physical attractiveness. A woman who develops a similarly athletic physique may not necessarily experience the same gain in attractiveness.

Whilst the factors influencing overall attractiveness are of course important, but what I'm saying is that just in terms of pure physical attractiveness, male athletes get an increase in that as a side effect of being male athletes. Even an elite male competitor who is not particularly successful relative to his peers will still have an athlete's physique.

TMB wrote:
This is not the case with female athletes. Female attractiveness seems to be more based upon youth and facial architecture. It is entirely possible for a woman to become extremely physically fit without necessarily increasing her attractiveness in any sense that the mass media gives a fuck about.

Agreed, the female body building industry spends a lot of time arguing the case of how sexy and feminine their performers are but generally men and other women do not find muscle bound women, with square male like features attractive or sexy. This is not too say that all women find muscle bound men to be attractive or sexy but a significant portion do and if they are someone like Arnold Schwartzeneger who have charisma and status they become even more attractive. As I noted earlier groupies is essentially a female behaviour. I have seen thousands of teenage girls (almost no males) line up to see a male performer, an equivalent female performer got far les interest and an even mix of male and female but no real hysteria or obsession.


I'll get to the difference between male and female performers in a sec. Just on the issue of bodybuilding though, I think it's an excellent example of what I'm talking about. The considerations for a male bodybuilder pretty much end at the top of their neck. Not the case for female bodybuilders.

TMB wrote:
It certainly throws up an extra hurdle for women in sports. Not as far as participation goes, but as far as making a career of it goes

As I have noted, the major hurdle, that of performance relative to males, has been overcome by giving women their own event so they are poised to get the same benefits in some sports (swimmers, tennis, golf, athletics – however not in baseball, cricket, soccer, rugby etc). The added advantage if they have the looks is that they do not need to be the best to get benefit. However some will run into issues when their looks are judged and found wanting like a recent winner of a grandslam tennis tournament, or Serena Williams who gets compared to Sharapovas looks and comes off second best, although she wins more tournaments. The contention is between the women themselves, yet it gets thrown back as men somehow getting unfair benefit.


Well, male sports are more financially rewarding than female ones, so it's not really the same benefit.

Disclaimer: The remainder of this post is entirely speculation on my part. I'm not sure whether I've really convinced myself here, let alone whether I have any reasonable expectation of convincing others.

But that brings me to the point you made earlier about male vs. female performers. Perhaps it might be more helpful to conceive of professional athletes in our era as a kind of performer. Someone once, talking about rock bands, said words to the effect that, "Men want to be the singer; women want to be with the singer." That is, there is a large factor of "wish-fulfillment" fantasy in all entertainment. I think this does reverse to some extent as you reverse the genders, but then you run into the differences between what makes a man attractive and what makes a woman attractive. You may have noticed that there are very few female singers who hit the big time without being - to be blunt - hot as fuck. Men don't want to be with a female singer, nor do women want to be that singer, unless the singer is hot.

If this is true, and if a large segment of the sports audience is actually motivated in a similar way, this would explain the differing popularity of men's and women's sports (and hence the monetary rewards). Male athletes already meet the requirements for many men's "fantasy self" and many women's "fantasy partner" by default. Female athletes do not meet the requirements for many women's "fantasy self" or many men's "fantasy partner" just by being athletes. In order to meet the requirement, the female athlete must also possess certain characteristics of "feminine beauty".

Without the ability to be transformed into this fantasy character in the minds of the audience, a performer/athlete's appeal is going to be restricted to those who appreciate their chosen field for it's own sake. That audience certainly exists, it's just a smaller one. The performer/athletes who do meet this fantasy standard can gain the attention of both the "purists" and the "fantasists".
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#58  Postby Doubtdispelled » Mar 03, 2014 11:32 am

TMB wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
TMB wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
Can you show us where she says that this pressure is 'unfair'?


In the referenced article this was stated.
She also cited the inequalities of media scrutiny over the appearance of male athletes compared to female athletes.

"It’s hard for a woman. A woman has to deal with it – and that’s never easy.

"A guy doesn’t get comments on his weight or his looks."

Yes, I know that. She spoke of inequalities. She said it's hard for a woman. But she didn't say it was unfair.

Incidentally....
TMB wrote:be accountable for any negative consequences upon others?

Just supposing for a moment that anyone agreed with this proposition, what form would you suggest this accountability should take?
TMB wrote:I see that women who do benefit from their looks do so with little conscience

I know! Let's all work at making these women feel guilty! That might take them down a peg or two. :plot:
TMB wrote:Men and women should be equally accountable for the trials of human society, yet men are usually held responsible and women are seen as the victims.

Then tell those men to down tools and hand society over to those poor victimised women. After all, shouldn't they too have a go at shrugging off responsibility? It's all so unfair! :waah:


You are making very little effort trying to rationally discuss this topic, but throwing in plenty of sarcastic comments. I get that this is an emotional and political topic but I dont see the point in engaging with you if you give nothing back on the points I make except negative emotion.

That might be because you never actually answer any questions in a reasonable and considered manner, not even the one you said was a 'good question'.

You responded, sure, but the response did not answer the question 'what responsibility', and simply threw in other considerations regarding this as yet undescribed and undefined 'responsibility', i.e. "should those women not acknowledge this and be accountable for any negative consequences upon others?" This only brings up yet more questions, such as what negative consequences are you referring to, and how could/should they be held accountable.

This is all rhetorical, btw, as I don't think you can respond to any of these questions with any lucid, sensible, real-world answers because it's all sheer speculation, the origin of which is presumably an uncomfortable feeling, an emotion, if you will, on your part, that something is not quite right about women and the ways that they behave. After all, you've yet still to show us where Rebecca said it was 'unfair'.

And presumably you didn't even take the time to consider why I responded to this supposed answer to my 'good question' with a :picard:

But go ahead, TMB. Continue with your ongoing campaign to paint women in the worst possible light, and to get others to agree with you.

TMB wrote:I get that this is an emotional and political topic

Is it? If it is, it's only because you are attempting to make it so.

BTW, Rebecca is getting married later this year. It could be, notwithstanding the hurtful comments about her looks, that she simply thought about looking at her wedding photos in the years to come, and being reminded of it all, and thought 'right, that's it, I'm going to do something about this'. And who can blame her?
Last edited by Doubtdispelled on Mar 03, 2014 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#59  Postby Doubtdispelled » Mar 03, 2014 11:35 am

Nicko wrote:
So what you are talking about is hypergamy. Women are seen as "sex objects" while men are seen as "success objects".

Yes. Or his own version of it. I think he uses it as others use a bible.
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Re: Womens appearance in elite sports

#60  Postby TMB » Mar 03, 2014 1:09 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
TMB wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
TMB wrote:

In the referenced article this was stated.

Yes, I know that. She spoke of inequalities. She said it's hard for a woman. But she didn't say it was unfair.

Incidentally....
TMB wrote:be accountable for any negative consequences upon others?

Just supposing for a moment that anyone agreed with this proposition, what form would you suggest this accountability should take?
TMB wrote:I see that women who do benefit from their looks do so with little conscience

I know! Let's all work at making these women feel guilty! That might take them down a peg or two. :plot:
TMB wrote:Men and women should be equally accountable for the trials of human society, yet men are usually held responsible and women are seen as the victims.

Then tell those men to down tools and hand society over to those poor victimised women. After all, shouldn't they too have a go at shrugging off responsibility? It's all so unfair! :waah:


You are making very little effort trying to rationally discuss this topic, but throwing in plenty of sarcastic comments. I get that this is an emotional and political topic but I dont see the point in engaging with you if you give nothing back on the points I make except negative emotion.

That might be because you never actually answer any questions in a reasonable and considered manner, not even the one you said was a 'good question'.

You responded, sure, but the response did not answer the question 'what responsibility', and simply threw in other considerations regarding this as yet undescribed and undefined 'responsibility', i.e. "should those women not acknowledge this and be accountable for any negative consequences upon others?" This only brings up yet more questions, such as what negative consequences are you referring to, and how could/should they be held accountable.

This is all rhetorical, btw, as I don't think you can respond to any of these questions with any lucid, sensible, real-world answers because it's all sheer speculation, the origin of which is presumably an uncomfortable feeling, an emotion, if you will, on your part, that something is not quite right about women and the ways that they behave. After all, you've yet still to show us where Rebecca said it was 'unfair'.

And presumably you didn't even take the time to consider why I responded to this supposed answer to my 'good question' with a :picard:

But go ahead, TMB. Continue with your ongoing campaign to paint women in the worst possible light, and to get others to agree with you.

TMB wrote:I get that this is an emotional and political topic

Is it? If it is, it's only because you are attempting to make it so.

BTW, Rebecca is getting married later this year. It could be, notwithstanding the hurtful comments about her looks, that she simply thought about looking at her wedding photos in the years to come, and being reminded of it all, and thought 'right, that's it, I'm going to do something about this'. And who can blame her?

:picard:
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