nojesusknowpeace wrote:Wow...are you seriously posting and then telling the people who read it what they should write or how they should respond?
This is a forum, not a blog.
You don't have to agree w/ the postings.

Having said all of that, if this the sizable problem that they are claiming this to be, why aren't people in the streets protesting?
Why aren't the myriad people on UK television and in the arts using their power to assist the working class?
Why aren't the people of the UK sitting outside of their newly-elected PM's office and refusing to budge until this situation is handled?

Saying that people are starving (or under fed) and then not examining the many reasons why (which, frankly, include some of their own personal failings) or providing any solutions is useless. They will continue to remain in this position and nothing will w/o solutions and concrete action.

What do you propose, OP?

AragornIII wrote:

nojesusknowpeace wrote:Wow...are you seriously posting and then telling the people who read it what they should write or how they should respond?
This is a forum, not a blog.
You don't have to agree w/ the postings.

Having said all of that, if this the sizable problem that they are claiming this to be, why aren't people in the streets protesting?
Why aren't the myriad people on UK television and in the arts using their power to assist the working class?
Why aren't the people of the UK sitting outside of their newly-elected PM's office and refusing to budge until this situation is handled?

Saying that people are starving (or under fed) and then not examining the many reasons why (which, frankly, include some of their own personal failings) or providing any solutions is useless. They will continue to remain in this position and nothing will w/o solutions and concrete action.

What do you propose, OP?

No I am saying I want to hear more than one view nowhere do I say libertarians can't post.

I didn't say people were starving either, so this is a strawman as is that entire post.

The people they focused on are people who are in that situation through no fault of their own. Sure some may have lost jobs and thus gone into debt but just hearing people solely blaming the poor is pathetic quite frankly.

nojesusknowpeace wrote:

AragornIII wrote:

nojesusknowpeace wrote:Wow...are you seriously posting and then telling the people who read it what they should write or how they should respond?
This is a forum, not a blog.
You don't have to agree w/ the postings.

Having said all of that, if this the sizable problem that they are claiming this to be, why aren't people in the streets protesting?
Why aren't the myriad people on UK television and in the arts using their power to assist the working class?
Why aren't the people of the UK sitting outside of their newly-elected PM's office and refusing to budge until this situation is handled?

Saying that people are starving (or under fed) and then not examining the many reasons why (which, frankly, include some of their own personal failings) or providing any solutions is useless. They will continue to remain in this position and nothing will w/o solutions and concrete action.

What do you propose, OP?

No I am saying I want to hear more than one view nowhere do I say libertarians can't post.

I didn't say people were starving either, so this is a strawman as is that entire post.

The people they focused on are people who are in that situation through no fault of their own. Sure some may have lost jobs and thus gone into debt but just hearing people solely blaming the poor is pathetic quite frankly.

You may wish to re-read the title of your own posting , which states "Working people unable to buy food."
This implies that these people are either starving or underfed.
If neither is the case, who cares?
If they are simply having a "hard time" getting food, then that's unfortunate, but it hasn't descended into an emergency situation, has it?

Again...do you have any solutions or do you recommend any courses of action?
Or is this a "poor them" thread?

AragornIII wrote:

nojesusknowpeace wrote:

AragornIII wrote:

Hmm...you failed support your own specious arguments...and that's my fault?
Really?
Nice to be able to blame others for your own failings.

Umm..and you actually have to show "straw men" when you accuse others of using them.
I'll give you my PayPal account for payment for giving you a debating lesson.



No I am saying I want to hear more than one view nowhere do I say libertarians can't post.

I didn't say people were starving either, so this is a strawman as is that entire post.

The people they focused on are people who are in that situation through no fault of their own. Sure some may have lost jobs and thus gone into debt but just hearing people solely blaming the poor is pathetic quite frankly.

You may wish to re-read the title of your own posting , which states "Working people unable to buy food."
This implies that these people are either starving or underfed.
If neither is the case, who cares?
If they are simply having a "hard time" getting food, then that's unfortunate, but it hasn't descended into an emergency situation, has it?

Again...do you have any solutions or do you recommend any courses of action?
Or is this a "poor them" thread?

Lol no it doesn't.

I am not going to indulge your straw men.

I was waiting for other people to comment, clearly you've ruined any chance of that.

nojesusknowpeace wrote:Wow...are you seriously posting and then telling the people who read it what they should write or how they should respond?
This is a forum, not a blog.
You don't have to agree w/ the postings.

Having said all of that, if this the sizable problem that they are claiming this to be, why aren't people in the streets protesting?

Why aren't the myriad people on UK television and in the arts using their power to assist the working class?

Saying that people are starving (or under fed) and then not examining the many reasons why (which, frankly, include some of their own personal failings) or providing any solutions is useless.

Beatsong wrote:I must admit I wasn't really aware of this either - I suspect it's a relatively recent phenomenon. But I have to say I'm not surprised, not one bit.

The increase in the cost of living in the UK over the last decade or so has been staggering. I earn a pretty average salary but as a family we do alright because my wife earns well above the average wage. Yet I've lost count of the number of times when, after yet another month in which we've been hit with some obscene utility bill, car repair (which we need for work), or whatever, we've only just had enough left for the mortgage and had to put off yet again any idea of saving for retirement (which is not a luxury as neither of us have any form of pension). And then asked myself in amazement:

"How the FUCK does anyone on unskilled wages actually LIVE in this country???"

Especially with children. I just don't get how it's possible.

So it seems like this is my answer: they rely on charity.

Some of the main offenders I've noticed:

1. Utility bills. Every fuckin year they just grow and grow.
2. Petrol.
3. Public transport and inflation-busting fare hikes, again year after year.
4. More recently, and worryingly: food.
5. House prices, obviously. Not so much for us as we were lucky enough to buy before the boom. But anyone wanting to get on the ladder now needs such a ridiculous multiple of the average income to do it.
6. Fucking council tax. Generally I'm pro-tax and big government. But I looked over my statements a few years ago and discovered that we were paying nearly THREE TIMES as much council tax as we did a decade before. What, like the council are employing three times as many teachers and street sweepers? Are they fuck.

It's hard not to point the finger at privatisation in regard to many of the other factors, such as utilities and public transport. The "wisdom of the market" bringing the best possible solution at the best possible price. Yeah right.

My stock reply to libby cunts who try to blame all this on the poor themselves and deny that society has any obligation to them, is that the social contract is by definition a 2-way street. You can't expect people to sign up to the obligations of society, such as obeying the law, respecting life and property etc, while denying them the means to actually LIVE within that society. Sure, you can expect them to work for a living. But if they show every willingness to do that, and the structural nature of wealth and resource distribution is such that even after doing it they can't actually feed their children, then you have an untenable sham of a society to try and uphold. And whether libbies admit it or not, that evil "S" word includes the social recognition of their claim to their own property (and even their life) being "theirs".

Don't want to pay tax to help the poor? Fine: I don't want to pay tax for a police force either. So let's disband it and let the poor descend en masse to your house and eat you.

Beatsong wrote:

nojesusknowpeace wrote:Wow...are you seriously posting and then telling the people who read it what they should write or how they should respond?
This is a forum, not a blog.
You don't have to agree w/ the postings.

Having said all of that, if this the sizable problem that they are claiming this to be, why aren't people in the streets protesting?

LOL. Because they're British.

Why aren't the myriad people on UK television and in the arts using their power to assist the working class?

Probably because most of them don't give a fuck.

Saying that people are starving (or under fed) and then not examining the many reasons why (which, frankly, include some of their own personal failings) or providing any solutions is useless.

Strange. I read the OP as specifically inviting people to help him examine the many reasons why.

nojesusknowpeace wrote:

Beatsong wrote:I must admit I wasn't really aware of this either - I suspect it's a relatively recent phenomenon. But I have to say I'm not surprised, not one bit.

The increase in the cost of living in the UK over the last decade or so has been staggering. I earn a pretty average salary but as a family we do alright because my wife earns well above the average wage. Yet I've lost count of the number of times when, after yet another month in which we've been hit with some obscene utility bill, car repair (which we need for work), or whatever, we've only just had enough left for the mortgage and had to put off yet again any idea of saving for retirement (which is not a luxury as neither of us have any form of pension). And then asked myself in amazement:

"How the FUCK does anyone on unskilled wages actually LIVE in this country???"

Especially with children. I just don't get how it's possible.

So it seems like this is my answer: they rely on charity.

Some of the main offenders I've noticed:

1. Utility bills. Every fuckin year they just grow and grow.
2. Petrol.
3. Public transport and inflation-busting fare hikes, again year after year.
4. More recently, and worryingly: food.
5. House prices, obviously. Not so much for us as we were lucky enough to buy before the boom. But anyone wanting to get on the ladder now needs such a ridiculous multiple of the average income to do it.
6. Fucking council tax. Generally I'm pro-tax and big government. But I looked over my statements a few years ago and discovered that we were paying nearly THREE TIMES as much council tax as we did a decade before. What, like the council are employing three times as many teachers and street sweepers? Are they fuck.

It's hard not to point the finger at privatisation in regard to many of the other factors, such as utilities and public transport. The "wisdom of the market" bringing the best possible solution at the best possible price. Yeah right.

My stock reply to libby cunts who try to blame all this on the poor themselves and deny that society has any obligation to them, is that the social contract is by definition a 2-way street. You can't expect people to sign up to the obligations of society, such as obeying the law, respecting life and property etc, while denying them the means to actually LIVE within that society. Sure, you can expect them to work for a living. But if they show every willingness to do that, and the structural nature of wealth and resource distribution is such that even after doing it they can't actually feed their children, then you have an untenable sham of a society to try and uphold. And whether libbies admit it or not, that evil "S" word includes the social recognition of their claim to their own property (and even their life) being "theirs".

Don't want to pay tax to help the poor? Fine: I don't want to pay tax for a police force either. So let's disband it and let the poor descend en masse to your house and eat you.

Given England's storied tradition of public protests..why isn't this motivating the masses to get up off their collective asses and camp out on Downing Street to protest?
Why aren't MP's offices being flooded w/ emails. letters and visitors complaining about this?
Why aren't there any boycotts of the companies that are the worst offenders?
Complaining is a useful way to start things...but it becomes a rather useless thing if actions don't follow in its wake.

Unless the masses in England don't see this as being the significant issue that OP believes it to be.

james1v wrote:Its within the remit of the government to ensure big business pays a living wage. Major fast food outlets who charge 99p for a burger, could easily add say, 10p to that cost and pass it directly to their employees. They dont. Because they expect the government to give a hand out to these poorly paid employees. This to me, seems absurd, why should a large company be allowed to do business and pay shareholders dividends, if the only way it can survive, is by government handouts to its employees?

Ive boycotted these companies for years now and will continue to do so. If only the missus and the kids would...

Dracena wrote:"nojesusknowpeace
Maybe because poor people often feel ashamed ( they shouldn't), like it's somehow their own fault.
Maybe they buy into the crap about it being their fault as spouted by wealthy, uncaring libertarians.

Maybe they are afraid that things will become even worse if they protest and/or that they
don't have the time between working fulltime, applying for help from charities (however it works in U.K.),
spending time with their kids and everything else they feel is necessary to live from day to day.
Maybe they are depressed and running on through life with blindfold on, subconsciously knowing
that if they stop to admit that their lifes are shittier than they should be thanks to the greed of others,
they will have to face the pain of it all and might not be able to function.

In these situations, just like with our bodies, if you can't survive today they the future is nil so why waste
resources in trying to make things better in a year when you'll be dead anyway.

Edit to add: Maybe some belive that if they suffer in silence they will be rewarded in an after life.

chairman bill wrote:As a child, I often went to bed hungry, and that was after my mother went without for our benefit. Forty years on, it's still happening. It has been made worse still by the rise in VAT, rise in inflation, above-inflation increases in cost of fuel & food, and reductions in both relative & real terms pay at the lower end of the pay spectrum. Additionally, the coalition govt. have removed the cap on social housing rents, without ensuring that housing benefits match those rents. The whole situation has been greatly exacerbated by the ConDem coalition.

Part of the problem is the national minimum wage. What we need is a national living wage. That working people do not get paid enough to live on, & that they need top-ups from government, means that the taxpayer is subsidising capitalists & private profit.