Spearthrower wrote:If I break someone's arm from him swinging at me, that would more than readily stand up in court as self defense.

Not necessarily.

In addition, you really need to consider this question:

Goldenmane wrote:How does Wing Chun train you to do that?

Goldenmane wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:If I break someone's arm from him swinging at me, that would more than readily stand up in court as self defense.

How does Wing Chun train you to do that?

I can't exactly explain it in word form, but it basically involves parrying their swing by pivoting, then hammering their elbow with the added force of your pivot.

AlohaChris wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

AlohaChris wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:I have to say that Aikido pissed me off. All the instructor ever talked about was how to run away. Do this move, and then run away. Evade like this, then run away. I was like... ffs I know how to run away already, if I get attacked I want to kick their arse before running away!

You win 100% of the fights you don't attend.

I wasn't looking to win fights, I was looking to defend myself in situations where running away isn't an option.

You need to have a rheostat of skills/responses to a given situation.

You don't use a full-force groin kick on an unruly 11 year old, for that you need a painless protective hold. You don't want to break your drunk friend's teeth with a punch when he acts the fool and needs to be escorted outside, you use a moderately painful come-along. If you've been victim selected by two or three drunk hooligans, going to the ground & wrestling with them is a bad idea, you're going to need to hit fast, hard & escape. If you surprise some guy kidnapping a child and he turns on you to kill the witness, well, you're going to need to know more than how to punch him in the nose.

Errr ok. This is starting to look like argument for the sake of argument.

AlohaChris wrote:If you want to learn how to kill someone with your bare hands, read Col. Rex Applegate's "Kill of Get Killed". It'll show you how to get the job done. The knowledge is, IMO, pretty useless if you don't have the mindset, physical fitness and willingness to do it. Anyone worth listening to will tell you that the mind is the first weapon and everything else is secondary. Recognizing and avoiding conflicts is a critical part of mindset. If you're fighting, you're already losing.

And obviously, I said I wanted to learn to kill someone with my bare hands... that's clearly what I said, wasn't it?

Nicko wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:If I break someone's arm from him swinging at me, that would more than readily stand up in court as self defense.

Not necessarily.

Actually, i think it does.

Nicko wrote:In addition, you really need to consider this question:

Goldenmane wrote:How does Wing Chun train you to do that?

Considered and answered.


Very odd reaction going on here chaps.

Spearthrower wrote:

Goldenmane wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:If I break someone's arm from him swinging at me, that would more than readily stand up in court as self defense.

How does Wing Chun train you to do that?

I can't exactly explain it in word form, but it basically involves parrying their swing by pivoting, then hammering their elbow with the added force of your pivot.

Not quite what Geoff or I was getting at. I'll put it this way:

How many people's elbows have you broken using this technique?

How many people's elbows have you seen broken using this technique?

To put it another way, are you training to break elbows or have you just been told that a certain drill will teach you how to break elbows?

Nicko wrote:
Not quite what Geoff or I was getting at. I'll put it this way:

How many people's elbows have you broken using this technique?

None.

Nicko wrote:How many people's elbows have you seen broken using this technique?

None.

Nicko wrote:To put it another way, are you training to break elbows or have you just been told that a certain drill will teach you how to break elbows?

Neither. I'm somewhat more than passingly familiar with human anatomy though.

Spearthrower wrote:

Nicko wrote:
Not quite what Geoff or I was getting at. I'll put it this way:

How many people's elbows have you broken using this technique?

None.

Nicko wrote:How many people's elbows have you seen broken using this technique?

None.

Nicko wrote:To put it another way, are you training to break elbows or have you just been told that a certain drill will teach you how to break elbows?

Neither. I'm somewhat more than passingly familiar with human anatomy though.

I'm not saying that a standing arm break is not possible. I am expressing my skepticism that the training methods of Wing Chun alone will give anyone the ability to successfully execute it.

Spearthrower wrote:Like I said: i already know how to run away. There are times when running away just isn't an option. In such cases, I wanted to learn how to genuinely defend myself.

'Genuinely defending yourself" is sometimes nasty business that includes putting someone else's lights out instead of yours. A fight is not a contest.

Spearthrower wrote:...Lots of parries with instant fight-ending moves.

There is no such thing. Unless you consider decapitation or a CNS gunshot wound a 'move'. I hyperextended & broke a guys arm in a jiu-jitsu tournamet. He ignored the pain, kept fighting and shook my hand with it after the match.

From my experience from street fights (I consider my cage fights a different animal because my opponent is conditioned to pain already) many people stop from pain compliance. For me, I was taught to win the fight and be good at it and that will be your self defense. Also, when it's just fisticuffs, it's not as bad as people think. Most likely your opponent isn't a trained fighter and they are sloppy. A couple of solid punches/kicks has always worked for me and the people I know who have gotten into street fights. One of my boxing buddies dropped 4 people all body shots. AlohaChris, your situation where the guy ignored the pain is not a common occurrence in the average street fight.

AlohaChris wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:Like I said: i already know how to run away. There are times when running away just isn't an option. In such cases, I wanted to learn how to genuinely defend myself.

'Genuinely defending yourself" is sometimes nasty business that includes putting someone else's lights out instead of yours. A fight is not a contest.

Again, want to show me where I suggested it was a contest?

I think you're trying too hard to find fault with what I've said.

What I actually said was that I didn't like Aikido because my instructor seemed to be interested in teaching only how to flee the situation.

You then suggested that running away is the optimal solution.

I then explained that there are times when you cannot instantly flee, and that you need to be able to defend yourself.

You then posited a lot of quite unusual scenarios where I might want to step in and do something more akin to attacking. i.e. 'if you want to kill with your bare hands..."

Now you're suggesting that I am talking about a contest.

If you want to address what I am saying, please feel free... but if you're going to keep making up these bizarre retorts, I think I'll just ignore you.

AlohaChris wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:...Lots of parries with instant fight-ending moves.

There is no such thing.

Mhmm.

AlohaChris wrote: Unless you consider decapitation or a CNS gunshot wound a 'move'. I hyperextended & broke a guys arm in a jiu-jitsu tournamet. He ignored the pain, kept fighting and shook my hand with it after the match.

Yes, and a random guy attacking me at an ATM is likely to do the same.

Clearly, I was talking about things like putting the attacker on the floor, or disabling them sufficiently to get away from the situation. Oddly, that seems to be what you first suggested was the appropriate way. Now we're onto killing with bare hands and trained attackers shaking off injuries. It's just bizarre.

As we're clearly not really meeting on anything like similar wave-lengths, I'll wait until you want to talk about what I was talking about instead of replying further.

Sovereign wrote:From my experience from street fights (I consider my cage fights a different animal because my opponent is conditioned to pain already) many people stop from pain compliance

Quite: my aim if cornered and unable to flee being attacked would be to disable them sufficiently to get out of that situation. I am not looking for applause in my skills. If I can put them on the floor, hamper their movement, or induce them to stop attacking via a lock or injury - I will be more than happy with the outcome.

Nicko wrote:
I'm not saying that a standing arm break is not possible. I am expressing my skepticism that the training methods of Wing Chun alone will give anyone the ability to successfully execute it.

As I mentioned: I've done various martial arts since I was a kid. I found the main use of Wing Chun was in learning to use the motion of your opponent against them by evasion and parries. From the first class I took, we learned of follow up moves that relate to disabling your opponent. For example, when your opponent over-extends with a straight jab and you can both evade and deflect that, you not only put them off balance, but you are in a position to do some rapid damage thanks to their poor positioning. One manner of doing damage to someone whose arm is fully extended and which you have caught is to slam your free arm against their elbow. Is it guaranteed to break? Of course not, and I don't believe I suggested otherwise. It's still going to fucking hurt and quite probably stop them from continuing attacking.

While I've never broken someone's arm, I have used exactly the technique I am talking about but with different follow-ups to put someone out of action immediately i.e. elbow to the side of the head, jab to the ribs, kick to the back of the knee.

Were they trained fighters immune to pain as per AlohaChris's extended scenarios? No, of course they weren't. They were alcohol fuelled bovver boys, a cunt I knew who had done some boxing, and a wannabe mugger with a shitty little knife - none of which expected any serious degree of retaliation, and the 'fights', if they can even be called that, lasted all of 10 seconds. My aim is not to fight, but if I am obliged to, I want to put down some smack as quickly as possible to hamper their ability to pursue me as I get the fuck out of dodge.

Spearthrower wrote:

Goldenmane wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:If I break someone's arm from him swinging at me, that would more than readily stand up in court as self defense.

How does Wing Chun train you to do that?

I can't exactly explain it in word form, but it basically involves parrying their swing by pivoting, then hammering their elbow with the added force of your pivot.

I see. Well, I think I see. I'm a fucking pedant, as you know, so I'm driven to point to two things here (neither of which are likely to be surprising or new knowledge to you, I expect, but pedantry must out):

1) That's not a break, it's (if successful) an hyperextention or dislocation

2) If it's what I think you're describing, it's by no means limited to Wing Chun.

But what I was really aiming to ask was how Wing Chun trained to perform it. As in, what drills and the like were involved?

I ask not to be an argumentative cunt (although I am that, as we all know) but because I'm genuinely curious. My experience of Wing Chun has been largely peripheral and generally academic.

(I am always interested in hearing how people know that their training works, of course, but it wasn't what I was asking in this case).

Spearthrower, I had no intentions of 'arguing' with you. You asked for recommendations, I made them: have a rheostat of skills, don't trust one move to stop a fight, and have a plan to avoid conflict/ deal with a worst case scenario.

I don't know anything about Wing Chun, sorry.

Goldenmane wrote:
I see. Well, I think I see. I'm a fucking pedant, as you know, so I'm driven to point to two things here (neither of which are likely to be surprising or new knowledge to you, I expect, but pedantry must out):

Ok, but I will be obliged to challenge your pedantry title!

Goldenmane wrote:1) That's not a break, it's (if successful) an hyperextention or dislocation

It certainly could result in a break. However, whatever the anatomical outcome, the result is still impairment of the attacker's ability to continue.

Goldenmane wrote:2) If it's what I think you're describing, it's by no means limited to Wing Chun.

I never suggested otherwise - I just found that Wing Chun focused on these types of disablings from a very early point. It really was a means of defending rather than attacking, always using the force of your opponent to do rapid damage and disable their attacks. Obviously, other arts like judo, karate etc similarly use this notion, but Wing Chun was very focused on quickly ending a fight and being free to flee.

Goldenmane wrote:But what I was really aiming to ask was how Wing Chun trained to perform it. As in, what drills and the like were involved?

I don't have names of techniques, if that's what you're after? My aim there wasn't to study it for its own sake and to progress through levels, but just to improve my ability to defend against attack

Drills were always one on one, never fighting the air. These were repeated over and over and took up approximately half the class. As progress was made, they were linked together to form something akin to a kata. We also did numerous strength, speed and balance building exercises.

Goldenmane wrote:I ask not to be an argumentative cunt (although I am that, as we all know) but because I'm genuinely curious. My experience of Wing Chun has been largely peripheral and generally academic.

I was very pleasantly surprised with it and muchly recommend it. One of the things I like most about it was that the mindful, positional aspect of it, over raw power, made it much more amenable to women. In fact, over half the class were girls. I think the guys at my university considered it too 'girly' and went for the more traditionally 'male' M.A.'s

Goldenmane wrote:(I am always interested in hearing how people know that their training works, of course, but it wasn't what I was asking in this case).

I can obviously only speak for myself, but it came in useful a handful of times in dealing with random aggression. As I mentioned before - I don't go out looking for fights, and would always rather calm or leave the situation if possible. While I've used judo throws and holds before - they're not quite so useful for getting clear of the situation.

AlohaChris wrote:Spearthrower, I had no intentions of 'arguing' with you. You asked for recommendations, I made them

Actually, I didn't ask for anything.

Spearthrower wrote:

Goldenmane wrote:But what I was really aiming to ask was how Wing Chun trained to perform it. As in, what drills and the like were involved?

I don't have names of techniques, if that's what you're after? My aim there wasn't to study it for its own sake and to progress through levels, but just to improve my ability to defend against attack

Drills were always one on one, never fighting the air. These were repeated over and over and took up approximately half the class. As progress was made, they were linked together to form something akin to a kata. We also did numerous strength, speed and balance building exercises.

Exactly. It's called Chi Sao (sticky hands) and is alleged to develop "sensitivity" to an opponent's movements.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUaeo6QeCo[/youtube]

Yeah it talks about something like this on the wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun

Chi sao

Chi Sao (Chinese 黐手, Cantonese chi1 sau², Mandarin chǐshǒu) or "sticking hands". Term for the principle, and drills used for the development of automatic reflexes upon contact and the idea of "sticking" to the opponent. In Wing Chun this is practiced through two practitioners maintaining contact with each other's forearms while executing techniques, thereby training each other to sense changes in body mechanics, pressure, momentum and "feel". This increased sensitivity gained from this drill helps a practitioner attack and counter an opponent's movements precisely, quickly and with the appropriate technique.

Chi Sao additionally refers to methods of rolling hands drills (Luk Sao). Luk Sao participants push and "roll" their forearms against each other in a single circle while trying to remain relaxed. The aim is to feel forces, test resistances and find defensive gaps. Other branches do a version of this where each of the arms roll in small separate circles. Luk Sao is most notably taught within the Pan Nam branches where both the larger rolling drills and the method where each of the arms roll in small separate circles are taught.

In some lineages (such as the Yip Man and Jiu Wan branches), Chi Sao drills begin with one-armed sets called Dan Chi Sao which help the novice student to get the feel of the exercise, each practitioner uses one hand from the same side as they face each other. Chi Sao is a sensitivity drill to obtain specific responses, it should not be confused with sparring/fighting, though it can be practiced or expressed in a combat form.

We were never taught to do anything like that. All the class was on drilling with particular attacks, and using deflection and evasion to create opportunities.

We basically faced off against a partner who was told to use a particular punch, or whatever, and then we were to evade it in X manner and drilled it. We then learned a number of such evasions for that particular punch and drilled them. Then we learned deflections and drilled them, and so on. Over the weeks, follow up moves were added to each of these, so there was an expanding repertoire of chained movements resulting from the first evasion or deflection.

Not sure if I am explaining it well, but what we did definitely doesn't look like that description in Wiki.

I've developed a fantastic system to throw an attacking opponent into a state of mild confusion, in addition to thwarting his/her entire strategy by resolving the strategic objective.

Now, listen carefully, grasshoppers.



If a foe moves to attack you, immediately commit suicide...

Matthew Shute wrote:I've developed a fantastic system to throw an attacking opponent into a state of mild confusion, in addition to thwarting his/her entire strategy by resolving the strategic objective.

Now, listen carefully, grasshoppers.



If a foe moves to attack you, immediately commit suicide...

I guess you make all your trainees pay upfront?