darwin2 wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

darwin2 wrote:
I agree with your statement that telescopes looks out and meditation looks in. Science and religion can be and should be complementary and compatible. Regarding Extraterrestrial Intelligence, science through the rapidly increasing power of radio astronomy hopefully will find ET. I am very confident that this occurrence will happen soon. When this happens Buddhists will be thrilled. Buddhism looks where science can’t. Buddhists explore the inner worlds where such exploration can bring deep inner peace, confidence and wholeness of being. Buddhism and Science working together can and should make this world a better place to live in.

They can be complimentary up to the point where the religious believer, in their fervour for their inner truths, start extrapolating it out onto the cosmos. At that point, they overlap and religion enters the scientific domain... and we all know what happens then.

Incidentally, every post of yours makes me hold less trust in your claims about Buddhism. I know thousands of them, and they most assuredly don't espouse anything like you claim.

I think you're a Western Buddhist who has lapped up the parts they like, fitted it into their new age beliefs, and think that's actually what Buddhism says. Come over here to a Buddhist country and see how distant your claims are from the majority of Buddhists.

Sir, my claim is that Buddhists at this point in time do feel it is possible for Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life to exist.

You state that my claims about Buddhism are different from those of thousands of Buddhists you know. I have made the following claims that I adhere to and practice. I have stated on this thread that Buddhists believe in the three Jewels of Buddhism, in Karma, Rebirth, that the sole purpose of Buddha was to give the people of this planet a method for ending suffering and the method he advocated was following the Eightfold Path. Please tell me how these basic tenets of Buddhism that I adhere to differ from those thousands of Buddhists that you imply you have had conversations with. Also please tell me how many of these thousands of Buddhists deny the possibility that ET exists. Please tell me how many of these Buddhists believe that an Ultimate Reality does not exist. Please tell what specific Buddhist scriptures deny the existence of an Ultimate Reality God.

darwin2 wrote:...snip...

Spearthrower wrote:

Unknowing wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:That 'critical thinking' you speak of is regarding internal states, not metaphysical beings.

Where does one discover the difference, and what methodology should one use to go about understanding either of these?

(Btw it's a bit of a stretch to say critical thinking is given key importance, at least in the sense it seems to be used here.)

I think it safe to say that everyone accepts that internal states exist. However, for metaphysical beings surely we'd look to evidence?

Spearthrower wrote:

darwin2 wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

They can be complimentary up to the point where the religious believer, in their fervour for their inner truths, start extrapolating it out onto the cosmos. At that point, they overlap and religion enters the scientific domain... and we all know what happens then.

Incidentally, every post of yours makes me hold less trust in your claims about Buddhism. I know thousands of them, and they most assuredly don't espouse anything like you claim.

I think you're a Western Buddhist who has lapped up the parts they like, fitted it into their new age beliefs, and think that's actually what Buddhism says. Come over here to a Buddhist country and see how distant your claims are from the majority of Buddhists.

Sir, my claim is that Buddhists at this point in time do feel it is possible for Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life to exist.

You state that my claims about Buddhism are different from those of thousands of Buddhists you know. I have made the following claims that I adhere to and practice. I have stated on this thread that Buddhists believe in the three Jewels of Buddhism, in Karma, Rebirth, that the sole purpose of Buddha was to give the people of this planet a method for ending suffering and the method he advocated was following the Eightfold Path. Please tell me how these basic tenets of Buddhism that I adhere to differ from those thousands of Buddhists that you imply you have had conversations with. Also please tell me how many of these thousands of Buddhists deny the possibility that ET exists. Please tell me how many of these Buddhists believe that an Ultimate Reality does not exist. Please tell what specific Buddhist scriptures deny the existence of an Ultimate Reality God.

Darwin2 - your posts are all bait and switch.

You are claiming that what you espouse is essentially Buddhist. I am saying that it's nothing inherently to do with Buddhism. I am not denying that a Buddhist could agree with you, but rather that there is nothing in Buddhism that indicates that all Buddhists will automatically agree with you. You already accepted this in an earlier post - why do we need to rehash it again?

darwin2 wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

darwin2 wrote:

Sir, my claim is that Buddhists at this point in time do feel it is possible for Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life to exist.

You state that my claims about Buddhism are different from those of thousands of Buddhists you know. I have made the following claims that I adhere to and practice. I have stated on this thread that Buddhists believe in the three Jewels of Buddhism, in Karma, Rebirth, that the sole purpose of Buddha was to give the people of this planet a method for ending suffering and the method he advocated was following the Eightfold Path. Please tell me how these basic tenets of Buddhism that I adhere to differ from those thousands of Buddhists that you imply you have had conversations with. Also please tell me how many of these thousands of Buddhists deny the possibility that ET exists. Please tell me how many of these Buddhists believe that an Ultimate Reality does not exist. Please tell what specific Buddhist scriptures deny the existence of an Ultimate Reality God.

Darwin2 - your posts are all bait and switch.

You are claiming that what you espouse is essentially Buddhist. I am saying that it's nothing inherently to do with Buddhism. I am not denying that a Buddhist could agree with you, but rather that there is nothing in Buddhism that indicates that all Buddhists will automatically agree with you. You already accepted this in an earlier post - why do we need to rehash it again?

So you’re telling me that my beliefs and practices regarding the three Jewels of Buddhism, Karma, Rebirth, the sole purpose of Buddha’s mission and the Eightfold Path have nothing inherent to do with Buddhism.

darwin2 wrote:In your posts you claim you had conversations with thousands of Buddhists and out of these thousands there is a Buddhist that can agree with me. Only one Buddhist out of thousands may agree with. That’s amazing.

darwin2 wrote:The other thousands would not agree with the issues I mentioned above. I think the thousands of people you talked to were not Buddhists but members of different religions.

darwin2 wrote:Can you identify one Buddhist sect in your country of Thailand that does not believe in the three Jewels of Buddhism, Karma, Rebirth, the sole purpose of Buddha’s mission and the Eightfold Path?

darwin2 wrote:Regarding the possibility that ET may exist, I have never heard a Buddhist or read anything in Buddhist writings denying the possibility that ET exists.

darwin2 wrote: Rather Buddhist Sutras are loaded with teachings of ET life in the Cosmos.

darwin2 wrote:So you’re telling me that my beliefs and practices regarding the three Jewels of Buddhism, Karma, Rebirth, the sole purpose of Buddha’s mission and the Eightfold Path have nothing inherent to do with Buddhism.

Unknowing wrote:Spearthrower and THWOTH —

I'm a bit puzzled as to why darwin2's comments should be in dispute at all?

The 31 realms of existence are made quite explicit in the Sutta Pitaka. You can even Google it.

Unknowing wrote:Spearthrower and THWOTH —

I'm a bit puzzled as to why darwin2's comments should be in dispute at all?

The 31 realms of existence are made quite explicit in the Sutta Pitaka. You can even Google it.

Unknowing wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

I think it safe to say that everyone accepts that internal states exist. However, for metaphysical beings surely we'd look to evidence?

It seems not everyone does accept that. But those that do, have a difficult job reconciling whatever that existence entails with other stuff that 'exists'.

If we look to evidence, how does the evidence differentiate them from metaphysical beings?

epepke wrote:

darwin2 wrote:So you’re telling me that my beliefs and practices regarding the three Jewels of Buddhism, Karma, Rebirth, the sole purpose of Buddha’s mission and the Eightfold Path have nothing inherent to do with Buddhism.

They have nothing to do with ETs, whether extra-terrestrials or Eddie Torrez, with the extra testicle.

I think I once saw an alien doll with Three Jewels, back in the 1970s.

Buddhist writings speculate about ETs? Meh. So does Ezekiel. So do some of the oldest writings we have. Plus robots. And a lot of beer. Beat that. Show me 6000 Buddhist recipes for beer. Even extraterrestrial beer, which has gotta be good, being brewed in zero gravity and all. Bet you could make a damn fine Interstellar Pale Ale on a flying saucer.

darwin2 wrote:

epepke wrote:

darwin2 wrote:So you’re telling me that my beliefs and practices regarding the three Jewels of Buddhism, Karma, Rebirth, the sole purpose of Buddha’s mission and the Eightfold Path have nothing inherent to do with Buddhism.

They have nothing to do with ETs, whether extra-terrestrials or Eddie Torrez, with the extra testicle.

I think I once saw an alien doll with Three Jewels, back in the 1970s.

Buddhist writings speculate about ETs? Meh. So does Ezekiel. So do some of the oldest writings we have. Plus robots. And a lot of beer. Beat that. Show me 6000 Buddhist recipes for beer. Even extraterrestrial beer, which has gotta be good, being brewed in zero gravity and all. Bet you could make a damn fine Interstellar Pale Ale on a flying saucer.

You are correct these specific tenets have nothing to do with ETs. I let another poster side track me into a discussion on these specific Buddhist tenets and will not let this happen again.

darwin2 wrote:My position is that Buddhists do believe that it is possible for Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life to exist in our physical universe

darwin2 wrote:and scientists define our universe to include all dimensions both the three dimensional universe and all other dimensions that may exist.

darwin2 wrote:Buddhist scriptures describe in detail intelligent beings living in other dimensions that are capable of dwelling in any dimension of the universe including this physical universe.

darwin2 wrote: Although these scriptures do not meet acceptable scientific standards to demonstrate that ETs actually exist in our physical universe they do support my contention that Buddhists do believe that it is possible for ETs to exist in our physical universe.

THWOTH wrote:

Unknowing wrote:Spearthrower and THWOTH —

I'm a bit puzzled as to why darwin2's comments should be in dispute at all?

The 31 realms of existence are made quite explicit in the Sutta Pitaka. You can even Google it.

Could you expand on how this might relate to the topic?

Spearthrower wrote:We're not talking about realms of existence - a distinction I made quite clear at the beginning of the thread - extra-terrestrial quite explicitly indicates other planetary lifeforms, not other dimensional ones.

Spearthrower wrote:Not everyone accepts that internal states exist? People deny that pleasure, contentment, satisfaction, distress, depression etc exist? I've certainly never heard of such people, would you care to point me to some reference for that?

"Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is form. Emptiness does not differ from form, and form does not differ from Emptiness. Likewise feelings, recognitions, volitions and consciousnesses are empty. So, Sariputra, all dharmas are Emptyness, without differentiating marks; they are not produced or stopped, not defiled and not immaculate, not deficient and not complete. Therefore, Sariputra, in Emptiness there is no form, no feeling, no recognition, no volitions, no consciousness; no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no visible form, no sound, no smell, no taste, no tangible, no mental object; no eye-element, and so forth, up to no mind-element and no mental-consciousness-element; no ignorance and no extinction of ignorance, and so forth, up to no aging and death and no extinction of aging and death; likewise there is no Suffering, Origin, Cessation or Path, no wisdom-knowledge, no attainment and non- attainment."

http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Tibetan_Version_of_the_Heart_Sutra_(English)

"Eliminative materialism (or eliminativism) is the radical claim that our ordinary, common-sense understanding of the mind is deeply wrong and that some or all of the mental states posited by common-sense do not actually exist. Descartes famously challenged much of what we take for granted, but he insisted that, for the most part, we can be confident about the content of our own minds. Eliminative materialists go further than Descartes on this point, since they challenge the existence of various mental states that Descartes took for granted."

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/materialism-eliminative/

Spearthrower wrote:These can be measured too. We might not be particularly advanced in our knowledge of the brain, but we can certainly map at least some of people's internal states.

As for reconciling it, I don't think it's very hard in general, but specifics may be some years away. Biochemistry seems sufficient however. To use an analogy, data exists on your harddrive, but if you unplug it and pull it apart, you won't find that data - it only exists in an operational state, plugged into the required hardware and with a power source.

As for metaphysical beings, they are postulated, not evident. Unless, of course, I can be so trite as to ask you to show me some evidence?

CdesignProponentsist wrote:I think if you are using Buddhism to answer tangible scientific questions about the universe, like if aliens exist or not, then I think you are missing the point of Buddhism.

Unknowing wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:We're not talking about realms of existence - a distinction I made quite clear at the beginning of the thread - extra-terrestrial quite explicitly indicates other planetary lifeforms, not other dimensional ones.

Well, the OP is talking about E.T. intelligence; and does make the point that Buddhism is non-committal on whether this takes the form of carbon based life or not. But I guess we should be more precise about 'ET' in scientific cosmology vs Buddhist cosmology. Ditto 'intelligent' and 'life' which sometimes get used interchangeably here. But there really can be little dispute that Buddhism recognises gods and other beings which are able to take material form.

Spearthrower wrote:

darwin2 wrote:

epepke wrote:

They have nothing to do with ETs, whether extra-terrestrials or Eddie Torrez, with the extra testicle.

I think I once saw an alien doll with Three Jewels, back in the 1970s.

Buddhist writings speculate about ETs? Meh. So does Ezekiel. So do some of the oldest writings we have. Plus robots. And a lot of beer. Beat that. Show me 6000 Buddhist recipes for beer. Even extraterrestrial beer, which has gotta be good, being brewed in zero gravity and all. Bet you could make a damn fine Interstellar Pale Ale on a flying saucer.

You are correct these specific tenets have nothing to do with ETs. I let another poster side track me into a discussion on these specific Buddhist tenets and will not let this happen again.

Don't bullshit us George, or I will go back and cite each and every time you've employed discoursive dishonesty to bait and switch to talking about these specific Buddhist tenets which I have at no point disagreed with, when instead I have suggested that other Buddhists don't share your beliefs in things like ET's.

Really, what is it with self-identifying as a religious person and complete mendacity with self-describing one's actions?

darwin2 wrote:My position is that Buddhists do believe that it is possible for Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life to exist in our physical universe

And there you are right back again making the same nonsensical assertion. It's no different than saying that Christians believe that it's possible, or Muslims, or Jews, or Hindus... because you can bet your left nut that SOME of them do, and therefore it's automatically part of their religion, right? No, of course it's not.

darwin2 wrote:and scientists define our universe to include all dimensions both the three dimensional universe and all other dimensions that may exist.

Scientists don't posit life in those other dimensions, nor are those dimensions really what I expect you think they are.

darwin2 wrote:Buddhist scriptures describe in detail intelligent beings living in other dimensions that are capable of dwelling in any dimension of the universe including this physical universe.

In detail? Citation please. From my readings, the scriptures mostly tell you what devas are not, not any great detail of what they are.

darwin2 wrote: Although these scriptures do not meet acceptable scientific standards to demonstrate that ETs actually exist in our physical universe they do support my contention that Buddhists do believe that it is possible for ETs to exist in our physical universe.

Wow that's an impressively mobile goalpost.

I made it quite clear from the start: There's nothing in Buddhism to stop people believing in ET's. That's as far as you can truthfully claim.