When I was on anti-psychotics I had such low self esteem, lack of optimism and direction. Now I'm off them I've really started to find my feet. I can't help thinking that the very fact I felt/was advised I needed to take anti-psychotics planted the iatrogenic seed in my mind that I am insane - and this seed grew into a mighty oak tree, devouring my optimism/self-esteem/direction. My lady friend is currently taking anti-depressants and reminds me very much of how I felt when taking anti-psychotics. IMO it wasn't the neuro-inhibitory action of the anti-psychotics that messed me up, as I suspected at the time, but rather the iatrogenic effect of being told "you're fucking crazy m8" - and my lady friend no doubt feels she's been told "life is fucking depressing m8". Thoughts? Shrunk?

Talk about flogging a dead horse/forum.

I like how when nobody wants to talk about what you're talking about, it's because the forum's dying

I don't know what you want here. I've been on citalopram for about 6 months. I made the decision myself. It helps a lot. No one told me life is depressing.

Fallible wrote:I don't know what you want here. I've been on citalopram for about 6 months. I made the decision myself. It helps a lot. No one told me life is depressing.

Life is depressing. It's also pretty joyous. My SO who struggles with day-to-day with Lupus is generally a happier person than me. Clearly depression and happiness has little to do with "life" if people with measurably shittier lives than others are happy and vice versa.

And if one constantly comes into conflict with others, can't seem to connect, and is constantly ruminating about it to oneself on a public forum, I can say with certainty the issue isn't "life."

Pretty much.

I personally find that letting go and becoming less detached is very good for my mental health
But it is a slow process that takes time and patience and can only come naturally not by force

Thanks for the tip, Elsa.

Fallible wrote:I don't know what you want here. I've been on citalopram for about 6 months. I made the decision myself. It helps a lot. No one told me life is depressing.

Been on citalopram for a year now to manage my anxiety, which makes me depressed when it gets bad.

The more detached I become the better my sense of being is
This works for me but I do not recommend it because your coping strategy is for you to decide and not me

I came across some phenomenal jaw dropping wisdom recently : your opinion of me is none of my business
I can agree with that a hundred million per cent even if I cannot always be sufficiently detached at the time

I have stopped being intimidated by telephone numbers which is very very rare indeed
I openly embrace death and I do not care when I go as long as the transition is painless

I have been living alone now for ten years and have felt no real downside to that at all
Unlike most human beings I function better when I am all alone and that will continue

I have my anger down to an absolute minimum and do not think I can bring it any lower

I have achieved all this perfectly naturally without medication which I really would not take anyway
I am so fortunate to be in that place because not everyone has that luxury so for that I am grateful

I really think I am on the edge of society because I am quite unusual although that may just be a false perception
I fully accept who and what I am and am very comfortable with that because fighting your nature makes no sense

I really do not like saying bad things about people because it makes me feel guilty so I usually say only good things

If I were to live my life all over again I would simply make different mistakes so I would not want to even if I could
I am therefore looking forward to spending eternity free from all suffering once I do finally shake off this mortal coil

Which is not that far away in all probability so when the time does come I will be ready because I accept it anyway

I'm not sure exactly what you have achieved without medication, except for basically removing yourself from everything except your own immediate surroundings. If I could stay at home with the curtains closed totally alone, maybe I could convince myself that my sense of being was good too. I don't think so though, as I could not accept total isolation as the price for peace of mind. I don't see the point of life if life equates to keeping myself in a box so that nothing impacts on me. Still we have had this conversation before, and if that's what works for you, all the best to you.

I am not trying to convince myself of anything. Because what I say is objectively true. Furthermore none of it was anticipated It is not something I was hoping for. However it just so happens that my physical isolation has lead to me becoming more free of mind over time. Now I am not saying this to convince you of anything. I am saying it because it is true. I am less angry and dogmatic than I used to be. I am more introspective and calm than I used to be. I have just learnt to let go. And so what you think of this is entirely irrelevant. It would not even matter if you agreed with me. It is simply a statement of fact. I see you referencing it from your own perspective as if that has any relevance whatsoever. I do not think for a single second that you could live like me nor I like you. But all I am saying is that it works for me and what would work for you is probably entirely different. The same solution will not work for everyone as you know very well

...

Fallible wrote:I don't know what you want here. I've been on citalopram for about 6 months. I made the decision myself. It helps a lot. No one told me life is depressing.

Perhaps it is even possible for one to plant one's own pseudo-iatrogenic seed simply by reaching the conclusion that psychoactive medication is required. You reached the conclusion yourself that life is depressing fal, and perhaps confirm and strengthen that conclusion every time you pop a pill...

I did not reach any such conclusion. The conclusion I reached was that I did not need to feel so low all the time, because life is NOT depressing, but that what I had been through was adversely affecting my quality of life to a degree that was disproportionate. My tumour had affected my body chemistry, so in a purely physical sense, it had impacted my ability to evaluate life effectively. You may talk about 'popping' pills all you like. I take a massive 20 mg a day of a common antidepressant, and I find this low dose just allows me to retain clarity of mind and make use if my own resources. So I take a low dose if antidepressant, have counselling on a two-weekly basis and use lots of the self-help techniques I preach to others. This is a temporary measure. I'm feeling all right.

Fallible wrote:I did not reach any such conclusion. The conclusion I reached was that I did not need to feel so low all the time, because life is NOT depressing, but that what I had been through was adversely affecting my quality of life to a degree that was disproportionate. My tumour had affected my body chemistry, so in a purely physical sense, it had impacted my ability to evaluate life effectively. You may talk about 'popping' pills all you like. I take a massive 20 mg a day of a common antidepressant, and I find this low dose just allows me to retain clarity of mind and make use if my own resources. So I take a low dose if antidepressant, have counselling on a two-weekly basis and use lots of the self-help techniques I preach to others. This is a temporary measure. I'm feeling all right.

Perhaps the bolded statement is a panacea for the problem hypothesised in the OP. Glad ur feeling ok fal.

I don't know what you mean. My GP was the one who told me I shouldn't be feeling that low, because my situation was not now depressing, but that the tumour had disrupted all manner of circuitry and finely balanced chemical interactions. He didn't tell me life is depressing so I need medication to deal with it. He told me my body was not acting efficiently due to a disease which had gone unnoticed for some years, which is true. A giant mass of disease had been leeching off my body for perhaps as much as a decade. It had hijacked my vascular system. My vitamin D level was through the floor. Vitamin D deficiency leads to depression.These are physical things causing a psychological problem. This isn't an unethical witch doctor fabricating a problem in order to drug me into submission.

Fallible wrote:I don't know what you mean. My GP was the one who told me I shouldn't be feeling that low, because my situation was not now depressing, but that the tumour had disrupted all manner of circuitry and finely balanced chemical interactions. He didn't tell me life is depressing so I need medication to deal with it. He told me my body was not acting efficiently due to a disease which had gone unnoticed for some years, which is true. A giant mass of disease had been leeching off my body for perhaps as much as a decade. It had hijacked my vascular system. My vitamin D level was through the floor. Vitamin D deficiency leads to depression.These are physical things causing a psychological problem.

Oh now I understand - well then the iatrogenic problem wouldn't apply in your case I guess anyway.

This isn't an unethical witch doctor fabricating a problem in order to drug me into submission.

Glad to hear it! Them docs are doing their best for the most part innit.

In my case? Depressingly, pun intended, in the 21st century we still appear to have to tackle this durr brained idea that physical and psychological illnesses are somehow clearly defined, separate phenomena. Unless one is some kind of woo believer, it can't be that difficult to understand that psychological illness takes place in the brain, a physical organ of the body. For me, it was cancer that triggered it. For others, it's the result of neuroplasticity. Others still, defects within the brain. We are also now learning of the genetic component to many psychological illnesses. These factors are all physical . No medical professional ever told you you were crazy. That was your interpretation. They told you you had a psychological disorder. If you do, it's because of a problem in your physical workings. Doctors don't know everything, be they head doctors or otherwise. That doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing at all. If you develop diabetes, you don't question your doctor's ethics when they tell you you need medication. If they tell you you are schizophrenic, or exhibit psychosis, this is because you are showing clearly that something is quite wrong. I mean what exactly do you think they get from unnecessarily diagnosing you with something?

Fallible wrote:If they tell you you are schizophrenic, or exhibit psychosis, this is because you are showing clearly that something is quite wrong. I mean what exactly do you think they get from unnecessarily diagnosing you with something?

Upon initial diagnosis medication may well be necessary and advisable - but we're back to your earlier possible panacea for the problem - it should be stated at the outset that the psychoactive meds are a temporary measure from the outset imo for the vast majority of maladies imo...so that the patient doesn't think their brain/the world/life is permanently fucked.