duvduv wrote:There's a big so what...The fact that an entire industry exists to support the idea of Christianity in the first or second century in Judea, when not a shred of evidence exists that such a sect even existed then.

Leucius Charinus wrote:Was Nazareth near Metropolis ?

DavidMcC wrote:
This whole thread is missing the point. It is a historical fact that there were many little religious sects around in Roman-occupied Palestine, some of them aimed at resisting the Romans, so the early Christians would have been one of them..

duvduv wrote:...an entire industry exists to support the idea of Christianity in the first or second century in Judea, when not a shred of evidence exists that such a sect even existed then.

DavidMcC wrote:
No. The real "so what?" is that one of the many sects exising in Palestine during the Roman occupation was one that ended up being exploited by emperor Augustus (who modified it, of course). Surely, you are not denying that such sects existed?

duvduv wrote:No evidence exists for the existence of any Christian communities in Judea. Period. Of course none exists for Galatia, Thessalonika, etc. either.

DavidMcC wrote:
They probably weren't called "Christians" (even in Aramaic), but you surely aren't denying that there were religious sects around that attempted to resist Roman occupation, and that one of these spread during subsequent years (eg, to Ireland, which had the first Christian monks, AFAIK).

DavidMcC wrote:
... Anyhow, where and how DO you claim that Christianity arose? You seem to be simply saying that history is bunk, period.

...
(63 B.C. - 395 A.D.) ROMAN ERA: The beginning of the Roman era was more a period of Jewish-Roman cooperation than conflict, and the Jews enjoyed substantial autonomy especially in religious matters. In fact, one of the early Roman Governors of Palestine was Herod, a Jew who was married to a Maccabean princess and who was thus seen by many as a continuation of the Hasmonean line. It was during his reign that Jesus (Prophet Issa) was born in Palestine. The followers of Jesus were persecuted by the Romans at the instigation of Jewish leaders who considered him a Jewish heretic. The conflicts that had tore the Jews apart before the Roman conquest however continued and while many Jewish parties counseled continued cooperation with Rome, others considered Roman rule intolerable. In 66 A.D. a Jewish group called the Zealots began a bloody seven year rebellion which the Romans retaliated against by destroying the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. After the revolt, the Romans restored autonomy to the Jews who again revolted in 132 A.D. Although the Bar Kochba revolt led to heavy Roman casualties, the Romans were able to suppress it after three years. During the revolt, the Romans killed and enslaved thousands of Jews and after it was put down they passed a decree forbidding Jews from entering Jerusalem. Even before the revolt, Jews outside Palestine far outnumbered those within it. Afterwards, many Jews who had remained in Palestine also left, leaving Jews as only a small minority in the area. Meanwhile throughout the Roman Empire Christianity was spreading and becoming seen as a challenge to the Romans. While most of the followers of Jesus had been forced to leave Palestine early on because of persecution there, Christians began being persecuted throughout the Empire in about 160 A.D. Under the pressure of severe persecution,the Christians divided into a number of sects but their numbers continued to grow. In 313 A.D. Constantine, one of the contenders for power in the Roman Empire at a time of political discord, changed the entire situation by issuing an edict that Christians under his rule would be given freedom. In 323 Constantine became the sole ruler of the Roman Emperor and set himself the task of strengthening the Christian Church. Constantine built numerous churches and frowned upon what he considered heretical sects and schisms hoping that he could gain unity in his empire through a united Christianity. In 330, Constantine formally converted to Christianity and moved his capital from Rome to Constantinople. In 383, Christianity was declared the imperial state religion.

DavidMcC wrote:OK, I saw a TV program about the history of the Roman occupation of Palestine. Since the Romans were asiduous record keepers, and 2000 years isn't that long in terms of human history, I saw no reason to doubt the validity of the claims made in what seemed like an authioritative history program. Of course it was TV, not the internet, so I didn't get any links from it. Do you automatically say that history is bunk?

DavidMcC wrote:... Here's a link, and the relevant text on it:
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/truthaboutpalestine/TheHistoryofPalestine.html

(63 B.C. - 395 A.D.) ROMAN ERA: The beginning of the Roman era was more a period of Jewish-Roman cooperation than conflict, and the Jews enjoyed substantial autonomy especially in religious matters. In fact, one of the early Roman Governors of Palestine was Herod, a Jew who was married to a Maccabean princess and who was thus seen by many as a continuation of the Hasmonean line. It was during his reign that Jesus (Prophet Issa) was born in Palestine. The followers of Jesus were persecuted by the Romans at the instigation of Jewish leaders who considered him a Jewish heretic. The conflicts that had tore the Jews apart before the Roman conquest however continued and while many Jewish parties counseled continued cooperation with Rome, others considered Roman rule intolerable. In 66 A.D. a Jewish group called the Zealots began a bloody seven year rebellion which the Romans retaliated against by destroying the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. After the revolt, the Romans restored autonomy to the Jews who again revolted in 132 A.D. Although the Bar Kochba revolt led to heavy Roman casualties, the Romans were able to suppress it after three years. During the revolt, the Romans killed and enslaved thousands of Jews and after it was put down they passed a decree forbidding Jews from entering Jerusalem. Even before the revolt, Jews outside Palestine far outnumbered those within it. Afterwards, many Jews who had remained in Palestine also left, leaving Jews as only a small minority in the area. Meanwhile throughout the Roman Empire 'Christianity' was spreading and becoming seen as a challenge to the Romans. While most of the followers of Jesus had been forced to leave Palestine early on because of persecution there, Christians began being persecuted throughout the Empire in about 160 A.D. Under the pressure of severe persecution,the Christians divided into a number of sects but their numbers continued to grow. In 313 A.D. Constantine, one of the contenders for power in the Roman Empire at a time of political discord, changed the entire situation by issuing an edict that Christians under his rule would be given freedom. In 323 Constantine became the sole ruler of the Roman Emperor and set himself the task of strengthening the Christian Church. Constantine built numerous churches and frowned upon what he considered heretical sects and schisms hoping that he could gain unity in his empire through a united Christianity. In 330, Constantine formally converted to Christianity and moved his capital from Rome to Constantinople. In 383, Christianity was declared the imperial state religion.

It is worth noting that politics and religion were inextricably linked in that period and region, so that religious sects were effectively political parties.

"..the Jews who again revolted in 132 A.D. Although the Bar Kochba revolt led to heavy Roman casualties, the Romans were able to suppress it after three years. During the revolt, the Romans killed and enslaved thousands of Jews and after it was put down they passed a decree forbidding Jews from entering Jerusalem. Even before the revolt, Jews outside Palestine far outnumbered those within it. Afterwards, many Jews who had remained in Palestine also left, leaving Jews as only a small minority in the area."

"Meanwhile, throughout the Roman Empire 'Christianity' was spreading and becoming seen as a challenge to the Romans. While most of the followers of Jesus had been forced to leave Palestine early on because of persecution there, Christians began being persecuted throughout the Empire in about 160 A.D. Under the pressure of severe persecution, the Christians divided into a number of sects but their numbers continued to grow."

a/ two separate, but vague references by Seutonius to (i) a 'Chrestus' and (ii) 'Christians' in Rome,

b/ reference to 'Christian' disturbances in Bythnia & Pontus ~111-113 by Pliny-the-Younger, and

Tacitus's reference to Chrestians causing problems, though that may be an interpolated/fraudulent reference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_mysteries#Characteristics

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_diaspora.htm

DavidMcC wrote:... I think duvduv just has an excess of skepticism about well-established history.