They have found encampments from the Neolithic age in Sinia, estimated to have been made by groups of around 100 strong.

Yet even using Humphrey's revised numbers, this still means approximately 1/4 million men (if my deplorable maths skills are correct) and their families wandered somewhere between Egypt and Israel apparently without leaving any evidence.

And why do the Christians need this 'historical' evidence? It seems to me as though they subconsciously know how ludicrous their stories sound; and need to peg it to reality because simply saying it is allegorical appears to be a cop out.

Cosmic Teapot wrote:They have found encampments from the Neolithic age in Sinia, estimated to have been made by groups of around 100 strong.

Yet even using Humphrey's revised numbers, this still means approximately 1/4 million men (if my deplorable maths skills are correct) and their families wandered somewhere between Egypt and Israel apparently without leaving any evidence.

And why do the Christians need this 'historical' evidence? It seems to me as though they subconsciously know how ludicrous their stories sound; and need to peg it to reality because simply saying it is allegorical appears to be a cop out.

It's not just "Christians" who are interested in these things. They are also relevant to historians of Ancient History, the Ancient Near East, Linguistic historians, etc.

Blood wrote:

Cosmic Teapot wrote:They have found encampments from the Neolithic age in Sinia, estimated to have been made by groups of around 100 strong.

Yet even using Humphrey's revised numbers, this still means approximately 1/4 million men (if my deplorable maths skills are correct) and their families wandered somewhere between Egypt and Israel apparently without leaving any evidence.

And why do the Christians need this 'historical' evidence? It seems to me as though they subconsciously know how ludicrous their stories sound; and need to peg it to reality because simply saying it is allegorical appears to be a cop out.

It's not just "Christians" who are interested in these things. They are also relevant to historians of Ancient History, the Ancient Near East, Linguistic historians, etc.

True, but in my last sentence I was specifically talking about Christians. Many of those I have spoken to seem to grasp at any 'evidence' for the Exodus, the flood, the nativity or the resurrection.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like there is any physical evidence whatsoever that the Exodus (as described but minus the miracles) ever happened.

hotshoe wrote:Unfortunately, it doesn't look like there is any physical evidence whatsoever that the Exodus (as described but minus the miracles) ever happened.

"Unfortunately"?

Something you want to tell us, Brother Hotshoe

mindyourmind wrote:

hotshoe wrote:Unfortunately, it doesn't look like there is any physical evidence whatsoever that the Exodus (as described but minus the miracles) ever happened.

"Unfortunately"?

Something you want to tell us, Brother Hotshoe

The reason they constantly look for evidence that their assertions are not simply allegorical, is that without the real world Adam and Eve, the original sin, the sacrifice of Jesus, the whole house of cards comes tumbling down, and the more honest among them realise this so desperately look for evidence to support the original nonsense, and thus support the house of cards.

Others just ignore it all with repeated exclamations of :"My faith is strong."

It is possible to look at the whole Adam-and-Eve-original-sin story as an extended metaphor for our sense that we are not the best people we could be, that each one of us falls short of some ideals. And along the same line, the Jesus sacrifice can be seen not as an actual redemption of our original sin, but a more-general message of love and suffering. It is NOT necessary to take Genesis literally to find Jewish or Christian religion valuable - at least not according to the millions of liberal Christians and reformed Jews.

Still, it's true that the christian believers - even the non-literalists - seem desperate to see any evidence that at least some of the "historical" parts of the bible agreed with real archeology. It's a puzzle - because even if Exodus were proved in basic outline (minus the supernatural parting of the sea, etc) it still would have zero to do with the god part being true.

Other cultures recorded things that really happened and maintained those records for a millennia. Does that help prove that the Egyptian gods were real ? Chinese ancestor spirits ?

So, if Exodus had archeological evidence, that would be okay. And if not, that should be okay, too.

Except for those rare deluded fundamentalists who believe literally every word has to be true. But they believe in insane nonsense like the Flood, so no one should care what they think.

Lion IRC wrote:We are talking about an area which lies within a couple of days walk of the Kings Highway which has been a trade route for over 5000 years. (...) Why is there this astonishment about nomadic wanderings for 40 years.

Well, if there was an old, established trade route through Sinai, why did it take Gawd's Chosen People 40 years to find their way? Those idiots came up with the Bible, when they seemed unable to find their own arses with both hands. What does that tell us about them? They didn't need the Ten Commandments - they needed a fucking roadsign! But Moses would probably have smashed that up, too...

Millions of words have been written about the Exodus by legit archaeologists, Hebraic scholars, etc. You would have to devote an enormous amount of time to get up to speed on what all the arguments are among ancient scholars, but who has the time?

The main point is that without the "God" bits, the Exodus story is rather ordinary and ultimately meaningless ... and I'm pretty sure that no archaeologist or ANE scholar working today is going to argue that the "God" bits are literally true. So there you have it. If the story has a kernel of truth in it, it's meaningless; and if it's pure ancient myth, then it only has meaning as an ancient myth.

Varangian wrote:

Lion IRC wrote:We are talking about an area which lies within a couple of days walk of the Kings Highway which has been a trade route for over 5000 years. (...) Why is there this astonishment about nomadic wanderings for 40 years.

Well, if there was an old, established trade route through Sinai, why did it take Gawd's Chosen People 40 years to find their way? ...

They were not rushing to get somewhere. And Cosmic Teapot is mistaken to think Christianity hinges upon archeological evidence.

If archeology stumbles across bible evidence the only thing I would say is..."yeah thats what we have been saying all along"

If archeology finds no evidence it makes no difference to my religion which is based on The Word not The Artifact.

If archeology finds evidence claimed to contradict The Word I say - "show me"

Lion (IRC)

..and when we do you say "I don't believe it."

Faith is cute, silly, but cute.

Lion IRC wrote:And Cosmic Teapot is mistaken to think Christianity hinges upon archeological evidence.

And you are free to point out where I said this any time you want.

ASo is there any evidence that Hebrew people were actually used as slaves in Egypt? Specifically that they had any hand in building the pyramids?

Net Traveller wrote:ASo is there any evidence that Hebrew people were actually used as slaves in Egypt? Specifically that they had any hand in building the pyramids?

No.

hotshoe wrote:

mindyourmind wrote:

hotshoe wrote:Unfortunately, it doesn't look like there is any physical evidence whatsoever that the Exodus (as described but minus the miracles) ever happened.

"Unfortunately"?

Something you want to tell us, Brother Hotshoe

Yeah.... she's a woman.

(Just bookmarking)

We are told it would have been very difficult for such a multitude wandering around out on the desert to have lived for more than a short time. Yes, and the same could be said about one person out on the desert. They are forgetting God, Who supplied water, meat (quail) and daily bread (Nehemiah 9:20). They believe that encampments of such a multitude would have left some sort of “trash” for them to follow, but they are still trying to figure out which route the children of Israel were on. “Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness, so that they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.” (Nehemiah 9:21) There was no thrown away, worn-out clothing, no piles of leftover manna as it melted (Exodus 16:21), and they left no “soda bottles or gum wrappers” for them to follow. As others have brought out, the Israelites the critics are looking for never existed, because they do not believe God provided for them, but the truth is Israel “lacked nothing”! Their inability to find something is what they offer as proof! They only recently found (2002) the “workers’ village” for the pyramids of the Giza Plateau. It is estimated this town housed 20,000 people and was built out of bricks, whereas the children of Israel lived in tents. And this discovery only came after they had searched every inch of the Giza Plateau for the last two hundred years of archaeology. See this site with new info on the Exodus = http://www.sinai-horeb.com/

Guess they didn't take dumps either?

Ah, a miracle, well that proves it then.

MathGMih wrote:We are told it would have been very difficult for such a multitude wandering around out on the desert to have lived for more than a short time. Yes, and the same could be said about one person out on the desert. They are forgetting God, Who supplied water, meat (quail) and daily bread (Nehemiah 9:20). They believe that encampments of such a multitude would have left some sort of “trash” for them to follow, but they are still trying to figure out which route the children of Israel were on. “Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness, so that they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.” (Nehemiah 9:21) There was no thrown away, worn-out clothing, no piles of leftover manna as it melted (Exodus 16:21), and they left no “soda bottles or gum wrappers” for them to follow. As others have brought out, the Israelites the critics are looking for never existed, because they do not believe God provided for them, but the truth is Israel “lacked nothing”! Their inability to find something is what they offer as proof! They only recently found (2002) the “workers’ village” for the pyramids of the Giza Plateau. It is estimated this town housed 20,000 people and was built out of bricks, whereas the children of Israel lived in tents. And this discovery only came after they had searched every inch of the Giza Plateau for the last two hundred years of archaeology. See this site with new info on the Exodus = http://www.sinai-horeb.com/

And how many people died during that 40 years? It was 3,000 during the golden calf incident alone. Don't you think there would be some evidence of that?