Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18601  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 22, 2011 11:31 pm

MS2 wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
MS2 wrote:
But that is not the same as including points in your argument which you know to be dubious.

If I want to make a case for HJ, I will not include points which I regard as dubious as I would consider it extremely dishonest to do so.


More's the pity, MS2. If you think the reason is that it would be dishonest to express uncertainty about any of your talking points, then I think I really am done with you.

A 'talking point' is not an 'argument for'. There are plenty of things about J (H or not) that I am uncertain about, but you were discussing specifically arguments for. And it is you who are demanding such arguments, in the absence of which you are recommending agnosticism.


Not quite. I'm asking why we should anticipate that Jesus is historical in the first place. None of the authors of the HJBC bookshelf appears at all interested in that inquiry. Hence, it appears that all they want to do is read the bible as if Jesus were historical. But you knew that, already.

We get a lot of noise about 'criterion of embarrassment' and 'multiple independent attestations', but not everyone accepts that those criteria represent the forceps of a serious inquiry.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18602  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 22, 2011 11:33 pm

TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:What does that have to do with the quality of the arguments made?


Skeptics of HJ seem to find the arguments pretty much uniformly of poor quality. Cry me a river.


You mean fringe "scholarship" and a cadre of, ahem, enthusiastic internet supporters of the anything but an historical jesus fellowship?

Oh, yeah, there's some quality judgment right there.


Please, Zeke. The 'fringe' scholarship to which you refer is defending a competing thesis, and is not an effort of skepticism.

Historical Jesus Fellowship? Sounds like a Unitarian thing, if you ask me.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18603  Postby TheOneTrueZeke » Nov 22, 2011 11:35 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
Please, Zeke. The 'fringe' scholarship to which you refer is defending a competing thesis, and is not an effort of skepticism.


Which is shamelessly mined by our skeptical enquirers as the fancy suits them.

Historical Jesus Fellowship? Sounds like a Unitarian thing, if you ask me.


It's anything but, apparently.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18604  Postby Byron » Nov 22, 2011 11:41 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:Actually to make the sort of inquiry I recommend, you have to be critical enough of your own ideas to define how your theory or argument can fail. I can easily see that historicists do not desire to make this sort of inquiry.

You can't have been reading the thread too closely then! The "historicist" case can be overcome by:-

  • the existence of a myth-Jesus strain of Christianity
  • showing that the earliest Christians did in fact believe in a myth-Jesus, and
  • producing a plausible explanation for the Houdini-turn pulled by this myth-Jesus Christianity

Earl Doherty (pretty much the best the mythers have, unless Richard Carrier stops dancing about and produces a scholarly case for myth-Jesus) goes for option two, but it falls flat, and he doesn't really get anywhere with the co-dependent option three. Option one could only be substantiated by the discovery of a myth-Jesus gospel, or an attack on it as heresy. This would be enough to *raise the issue*: it would still face an uphill struggle to overturn the HJ consensus.

You could also overcome the HJ case by producing a criterion for establishing historicity that excludes the references to the historic Jesus, and successfully arguing for why it should replace the historical method. This you refuse to do. It's as if you don't desire it, Cito.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18605  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 22, 2011 11:41 pm

TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:
Please, Zeke. The 'fringe' scholarship to which you refer is defending a competing thesis, and is not an effort of skepticism.


Which is shamelessly mined by our skeptical enquirers as the fancy suits them.


Pity, that. Apparently the HJ contingent is a source of ribald entertainment.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18606  Postby Byron » Nov 22, 2011 11:45 pm

Here's a specimen example of such a criterion:-

"Absent plausible eyewitness accounts, or works in a person's own hand, historicity should require a disinterested reference in a work recognized as meeting the norms of ancient history."

Aw fuck, Jesus is still historical, but I'm sure it can be whittled down!
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18607  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 22, 2011 11:49 pm

Byron wrote:Here's a specimen example of such a criterion:-

"Absent plausible eyewitness accounts, or works in a person's own hand, historicity should require a disinterested reference in a work recognized as meeting the norms of ancient history."

Aw fuck, Jesus is still historical, but I'm sure it can be whittled down!


You see how this not-so-subtly brings back in the academic consensus. To me, that is not an argument. Not when so many dubious talking points have been visited and re-visited. The academic consensus has not shown that it finds conceivable the notion that Jesus is not historical. If historicity is what you are trying to establish in the present moment, it appears that consensus and fashion are invaluable.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18608  Postby Byron » Nov 22, 2011 11:51 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:The academic consensus has not shown that it finds conceivable the notion that Jesus is not historical.

How should it "show" this?
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18609  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 22, 2011 11:53 pm

Byron wrote:Here's a specimen example...


You bring out the inner pedant in me, Byron. Where'd ya pick up the 'specimen example'? Department of Redundancy Department?
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18610  Postby MS2 » Nov 22, 2011 11:53 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
MS2 wrote:If you think the reason is that it would be dishonest to express uncertainty about any of your talking points, then I think I really am done with you.

A 'talking point' is not an 'argument for'. There are plenty of things about J (H or not) that I am uncertain about, but you were discussing specifically arguments for. And it is you who are demanding such arguments, in the absence of which you are recommending agnosticism.


Not quite. I'm asking why we should anticipate that Jesus is historical in the first place. None of the authors of the HJBC bookshelf appears at all interested in that inquiry. Hence, it appears that all they want to do is read the bible as if Jesus were historical. But you knew that, already.

Yeah I did. I get that you think HJers simply assume their answer. I think you are wrong about that. I think it is more that they consider HJ is one possible hypothesis which might explain the evidence and on examination they find that tends to be the case. I also appreciate you consider this is an inappropriate method.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18611  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 22, 2011 11:54 pm

Byron wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:The academic consensus has not shown that it finds conceivable the notion that Jesus is not historical.

How should it "show" this?


Maybe by asking and answering the question in a long, long, long preface. :cheers:
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18612  Postby TheOneTrueZeke » Nov 22, 2011 11:56 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:

Pity, that. Apparently the HJ contingent is a source of ribald entertainment.


It's no rival for the any port in a storm agnostics. Although I suppose that's more in a slapstick vein.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18613  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 22, 2011 11:58 pm

MS2 wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:

A 'talking point' is not an 'argument for'. There are plenty of things about J (H or not) that I am uncertain about, but you were discussing specifically arguments for. And it is you who are demanding such arguments, in the absence of which you are recommending agnosticism.


Not quite. I'm asking why we should anticipate that Jesus is historical in the first place. None of the authors of the HJBC bookshelf appears at all interested in that inquiry. Hence, it appears that all they want to do is read the bible as if Jesus were historical. But you knew that, already.

Yeah I did. I get that you think HJers simply assume their answer. I think you are wrong about that. I think it is more that they consider HJ is one possible hypothesis which might explain the evidence and on examination they find that tends to be the case. I also appreciate you consider this is an inappropriate method.


That's fine, MS. It's clear to me that you and I do not intend the same sign in the word 'inquiry'. As I said, the first pass produces a totality, a subjective sense that Jesus is historical. The second pass re-parses the text for reasonable inferences. It's like a computer compiler. Garbage in, garbage out. With a useable compiler, you just get syntax errors on the first pass, and then the serious debugging begins.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18614  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 22, 2011 11:59 pm

TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:

Pity, that. Apparently the HJ contingent is a source of ribald entertainment.


It's no rival for the any port in a storm agnostics. Although I suppose that's more in a slapstick vein.


Really, I love you guys. I R srs cat. This R srs thread.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/chris ... l#p1081729
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18615  Postby Byron » Nov 23, 2011 12:00 am

Cito di Pense wrote:Maybe by asking and answering the question in a long, long, long preface. :cheers:

Must every history book do this for everyone featured? "We know Thomas Cromwell existed because ... we know Thomas Cramner existed because ... we know John Knox existed because (actually, we're too scared of him to dispute that, moving on) ..."

By the time this stack of pointless exposition was done, there'd be no room for the history. Given the contempt in which you hold the subject, I doubt this'd trouble you, but historians will, understandably, disagree.

Must this "restating the bleeding obvious" approach be exported to all disciplines? "We know that chemotheraputic destuction of bacteria is possible because ... we know that space-time is a flexible beastie because ... we know that the Earth is spherical because ..."

Oh yeah, this is practical.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18616  Postby Cito di Pense » Nov 23, 2011 12:03 am

Byron wrote:
Cito di Pense wrote:Maybe by asking and answering the question in a long, long, long preface. :cheers:

Must every history book do this for everyone featured? "We know Thomas Cromwell existed because ... we know Thomas Cramner existed because ... we know John Knox existed because (actually, we're too scared of him to dispute that, moving on) ..."


No, of course not. History textbooks assume Jesus is historical and place him in context. Something somewhat different is going on here in this thread, where there is actually a give and take on the components of that assumption. It's a dialog.

It's an internet forum, FFS. From the word go, a lot of venom has been spewed in the direction of mythicists, who seem to have backed off a bit, of late. Except dejuror. There's always dejuror. I assume the venom comes from too much practise and a sense that this should be a settled question by now. I think it's got potential as a dialectic.

But really, Jesus is not fit to spit-polish Marcus Aurelius' championship belt buckle.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18617  Postby MS2 » Nov 23, 2011 12:11 am

Cito di Pense wrote:That's fine, MS. It's clear to me that you and I do not intend the same sign in the word 'inquiry'. As I said, the first pass produces a totality, a subjective sense that Jesus is historical. The second pass re-parses the text for reasonable inferences. It's like a computer compiler. Garbage in, garbage out. With a useable compiler, you just get syntax errors on the first pass, and then the serious debugging begins.

Yeah, I've got a vague memory that way, way back in this thread I made it explicit that I did not consider this was a question that could be answered to scientific standards, and I've said so a number of times since (I'm pretty sure the other HJ contributors have said similarly). But hey-ho.
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Annals 15.44 redux

#18618  Postby spin » Nov 23, 2011 12:45 am

This post is to deal with some erroneous stuff recently posted here about Tacitus:

In the Annals Tacitus wrote a long discourse (15.38-44) on the great fire of Rome that destroyed much of the city during the reign of Nero. After describing the course of fire and various actions that stemmed from dealing with the fire ("the precautions of human wisdom"), this follows:
Annals 15.44 wrote:Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, where water was procured to sprinkle the temple and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But no human efforts, nor the lavish gifts of the emperor, or the propitiations of the gods, could banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius under the procurator, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

(The grey section represents what I believe to be the part that Tacitus actually wrote.)

There are several problems with Annals 15.44:
  1. Tacitus says what he wanted to in way of conclusion, "But no human efforts, nor the lavish gifts of the emperor, or the propitiations of the gods, could banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order." Without Tacitus accusing Nero of anything, he leaves the emperor holding the bag for the fire, ie everyone knew he ordered it. But Tacitus, known as one of the greatest orators of his era, immediately changes topic from the involvement of Nero regarding the fire to the horrors of the persecution of christians and loses focus in his attack on Nero by hiding this sharp criticism of Nero with a passage about christians.
  2. It erroneously calls Pontius Pilate a "procurator" when Tacitus is a major source for the fact that procurators weren't given control of provinces before the time of Claudius. (See below.)
  3. It has Nero's gardens being given over to the burning of christians at night in 15.44.5, when the gardens were filled with people made homeless by the fire who were waiting while new dwellings were being built (15.39.2).
  4. It is a passage about something Nero attempted in order to dispel the rumours that he'd started the fire, after Tacitus stated that none of his efforts could dispel the rumours.
  5. Tacitus, known as one of the greatest orators of his era, writes a passage that blames the christians for something, but is unclear as to what it was that they pleaded guilty of.
  6. The style of the passage wildly does not reflect Tacitus's renowned style of reserve and understatement.
  7. The passage is functionally a martyrdom story outlining how awfully the christians were treated--so badly that passers by could feel pity (this is in the city where people went to the amphitheatre to watch people being torn apart by wild animals for entertainment). Arguing that the picture was not favorable to christians, is merely an accusation that a christian interpolator was incapable of trying to fit into the style of the original writer.
Considering this nexus of problems, errors, and unlikely stylistic issues, it is improbable that Tacitus would have written such a schemozzle. Suetonius, who was director of imperial archives, strangely knew nothing about a christian connection with the Neronian fire. The first person to make the connection between christians and the fire was Sulpicius Severus (c. 363 – c. 425), the christian writer of Chronicles (see 2.29). Annals 15.44 is a christian forgery written after the time of Sulpicius Severus, that amplifies Severus's work. It adds the confused accusation against the christians and the story of Nero's double use of the gardens. (See my presentation here.)

Procurator Pontius Pilate

A prefect was in origin a military posting. A procurator was someone appointed to look after the finanial side of administration.

Here's a pre-Claudian reference in the Annals to a procurator is 4.15:

    Everything indeed was as yet in the hands of the Senate, and consequently Lucilius Capito, procurator of Asia, who was impeached by his province, was tried by them, the emperor vehemently asserting "that he had merely given the man authority over the slaves and property of the imperial establishments; that if he had taken upon himself the powers of a praetor and used military force, he had disregarded his instructions; therefore they must hear the provincials."
You note that the procurator has no judicial powers, but merely had charge of the province's property. The province of Asia was ruled by a proconsul, eg Caius Silanus (3.66) or Junius Silanus (13.1). The role of the procurator changed with Claudius in A.12.60:

    That same year the emperor was often heard to say that the legal decisions of his procurators ought to have the same force as if pronounced by himself.
They didn't have judicial power in their own right because they weren't patricians. Judicial power was necessary to make legal decisions necessary as a provincial governor. Suetonius alludes to the same decision (Claud. 12):

    [Claudius]requested of [the senate] permission for the prefect of the military tribunes and pretorian guards to attend him in the senate-house; and also that they would be pleased to bestow upon his procurators judicial authority in the provinces.
And so started the governance of imperial provinces by procurators alluded to in Histories 5.9,

    The kings were either dead, or reduced to insignificance, when Claudius entrusted the province of Judaea to the Roman Knights or to his own freedmen, one of whom, Antonius Felix, indulging in every kind of barbarity and lust, exercised the power of a king in the spirit of a slave.
Procurators were not a part of the Roman cursus honorum, the sequential order of public offices. They were Roman knights or freedmen and so not being patricians were ineligible to enter the cursus honorum. Until the time of Claudius, they had no power to tell Romans who were in the cursus honorum what to do, so couldn't govern. Tacitus, knew the cursus honorum inside out, having risen through those ranks to become a proconsul himself. He knew when procurators gained judicial power and was well aware that prior to Claudius no procurator had the power to govern.

Pilate was not a procurator. He was a military prefect, as indicated by an inscription found in Caesarea Maritima, in charge of a small province answerable directly to the proconsular legate in Antioch. (And bringing up Richard Carrier's opinions as to the possibility of Pilate being a procurator is pure desperation.)

Tacitus obviously didn't write about Pilate as governor of Judaea being a procurator. Such a blunder was made by someone who didn't know about such things, someone writing long afterwards.
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Re: Annals 15.44 redux

#18619  Postby Byron » Nov 23, 2011 1:11 am

spin wrote:Procurators were not a part of the Roman cursus honorum, the sequential order of public offices. They were Roman knights or freedmen and so not being patricians were ineligible to enter the cursus honorum.

Your source for this claim? Sula reformed the cursus honorum in 81 BC, and the equestrian Cicero progressed through the offices to consul.
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Re: What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?

#18620  Postby proudfootz » Nov 23, 2011 2:06 am

Byron wrote:
proudfootz wrote:At best Tacitus reports only hearsay from the year he was writing early in the 2nd Century. Had Tacitus actually consulted any official records then we would only have evidence that a certain Chrestus was crucified under the Procurator Pilate (who was not actually Procurator but turns out to have been Prefect - not an unimportant distinction to people of that time even if unimportant to us today).

The fixation on the term "procurator" is exactly what I mean when I talk about needless micro-analysis.


When we only have micro-evidence the only kind of analysis would have to be micro-analysis.

It says nothing of note about Tactius or 2nd Century attitudes to Christianity: it's minutiae, raised only to discredit the passage.


It says a great deal about how Tacitus was treated if indeed the passage is an interpolation.

Look at all the maybes and possiblies and could have dones one has to do to try and turn the actual text into a genuine reference to Jesus:

There's any number of explanations for it, including
  • Tacitus deliberately used the contemporary term to avoid reader-confusion
  • we know less about 1st Century Roman titles than we think (even Richard Carrier admitted that Pilate could have held both titles)
  • Tacitus made a mistake -- people do, you know! It's usually objected that Tacitus was precise: well yes, he was, but that doesn't make him infallible. All he had to do was unconsciously say "procurator" when he meant "prefect" and bang, done
  • Tacitus' scribe made a mistake, and it wasn't picked up
  • a scribe "corrected" an early copy, or made the same unconscious slip I suggested above, and this is the version that was transmitted

What's never explained is why it's any likelier that a Christian would forge the passage in impeccable Silver Age Latin, and cock-up Pilate's title.


Supposedly it would be 'unlikely' anyone could insert a passgage of a few lines into Tacitus without it being an 'obvious' interpolation. Maybe a scribe actually living in the Latin culture familiar with the text could do so without modern scholars for whom 'Silver Age Latin' is more than a thousand years in the past being able to tell the difference.

Most likely the cock-up of Pilate's rank was done by someone ignorant of the difference. Tacitus was not so ignorant.

We also have evidence that the text now in our possession was 'corrected' to change the name of the condemned man from Chrestus to the Christus (apparently to better fit the story about history christians would have us believe).

Perhaps the christians borrowed from the story of Chrestus and applied it to their god-man Jesus. ;)

More minutiae, which does nothing to change the meaning of the passage (unless you think that Pliate executed both a Chrestus and a Christus, who both had pan-Empire groups of followers: wow, what a coincidence!).


Tacitus doesn't mention any 'Christus' at all.

Perhaps people interested in history should consider whether the passage as we have it means exactly what it says (unless maybe Tacitus confused someone named Chrestus for Jesus, maybe Tacitus was confused about Pilate's rank, maybe... maybe ... maybe...).

Tacitus in any case is of much more use as evidence for 2nd Century Roman attitudes to Christianity than it is Jesus' existence as such. (Although it would by itself strongly point Jesus' existence.) Paul's first-hand hearsay is much stronger evidence for that.


Nonetheless - as I wrote - many use the dubious Tacitus and Josephus passages (hearsay even if genuine) as vouchers for the notion the various christian writers were actually writing about a living person named Jesus.

We don't know when the text was inserted into Josephus Antiquities of the Jews chapter 18. Ascribing it to a medieval christian is mere anachromism. It is not referred to until the early 4th century when that man of many talents Eusebius 'quotes' it. Indeed for a very long time the consensus was that Eusebius wrote the offending passage himself - a theory that still has legs among the tribe of scholars to this day.

Apparently some creative people inserted this same 'testimonium' into texts of another work by Josephus known as The Jewish War in efforts to spread the 'good news'.

Some expanded the suspect text even further to say that not only was Jesus a wise man but also The MessiahTM.

Until the second half of the 20th century AD the consensus was the whole passage was spurious. Later revisionists believed they could 'find' an authentic mention of Jesus there. Even if true, it still only amounts to hearsay decades after the fact.

Christianity was a small, persecuted sect until the 4th Century, in no position to tamper with records. It achieved dominance by the end of the 4th Century, at the outer-edge of the medieval period, so call "medieval" a good guess. The theological comments hold good for Christians of either era.


Though Eusebius was doing his 'History' early in the 4th Century when these alleged testimoniums were suddenly 'discovered' and began to be quoted.

We now have a Syriac paraphrase of the pre-Christian TF, so the consensus is rightly shifted (if I recall right, textual analysis had more to do with this). As with Tacitus, Josephus is of more interest as evidence of a certain community's perception of Jesus than it is his existence.


I agree - even if genuine both Josephus and Tacitus are only evidence of the existence of christianity and not of a man Jesus.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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