Mr.Samsa wrote:I think it would be very strange for someone to try to argue that some kinds of bigotry and prejudice are okay because they "balance the books" or whatever but I don't think that's what is being said in the video of the OP though.

Animavore wrote:Irish people rib the Brits all the time over the stuff they did to us in the past, but when they rib us it's usually offensive crap, just like highlighted in his example of whites making fun of blacks. So we do have a 'race card' of sorts.

Perhaps if the Irish spent less time ribbing the British over the past, they would be less liable to get “offensive crap” back? Banter tends to be about pushing the boundaries of what’s offensive and what isn’t, and between friends stuff may be OK which would be seriously unacceptable in general. I’m English, I’m not aware of having been personally involved in mistreating any Irish, if an Irish acquaintance I was talking to started making unprovoked jokes about the horrible English I think I would regard this as offensive crap. Certainly, the English did badly mistreat the Irish and I should be properly aware of it, but in the 21st century should I regard myself as a sitting target in consequence, in an ordinary social setting?

zoon wrote:(especially since they'd have no idea you were Irish simply by looking at you, unless you're rolling down the street in a leprechaun hat, wearing only the Irish flag as clothes and simultaneously drinking a Guinness whilst playing the fiddle).

No need to go that far. Having a clearly Irish Republic accent is enough for me to be wary in some parts of Northern Ireland. Just having a Dublin registration on your car is enough to get a brick through the window.

zoon wrote:
Perhaps if the Irish spent less time ribbing the British over the past, they would be less liable to get “offensive crap” back? Banter tends to be about pushing the boundaries of what’s offensive and what isn’t, and between friends stuff may be OK which would be seriously unacceptable in general. I’m English, I’m not aware of having been personally involved in mistreating any Irish, if an Irish acquaintance I was talking to started making unprovoked jokes about the horrible English I think I would regard this as offensive crap. Certainly, the English did badly mistreat the Irish and I should be properly aware of it, but in the 21st century should I regard myself as a sitting target in consequence, in an ordinary social setting?

I'm sure the jokes get less over time, but just like the way the Catholic Church will never live down their treatment of children in this country and will always have jibes made about it in their direction, there'll always be someone ribbing the British.
Of course it would be in terrible bad taste if the Catholic Church priests made jokes about them mistreating children or about children.

EDIT: Fix.

Sorry, I just don't get what the shit that the British did several generations ago has to do with any British person alive now. I do find the language you used interesting though Ani, you talk about the Irish "ribbing" the Brits, while the Brits say "offensive crap". Interesting discussion for me, having a foot in both camps.

Fallible wrote:Sorry, I just don't get what the shit that the British did several generations ago has to do with any British person alive now. I do find the language you used interesting though Ani, you talk about the Irish "ribbing" the Brits, while the Brits say "offensive crap". Interesting discussion for me, having a foot in both camps.

Well the British 'jokes' are usually just blatant insults about red-headed, toothless, gormless, drunken Paddy's. It's not the same as making fun of the Queen, the Prime Minister, the Black and Tans, Ian Paisley and RUC.

I guess I'm just not sure I believe that the ones you listed from the Irish are as bad as it gets.

I can't think of any personal traits that get used in banter against the English in the same way as there is about the Irish and Scots. We're all ginger, thick, tight-fisted, drunken, deep-fry all our food, sponge off the English etc. I genuinely can't think of anything similar said the other way.

Animavore wrote:

Fallible wrote:Sorry, I just don't get what the shit that the British did several generations ago has to do with any British person alive now. I do find the language you used interesting though Ani, you talk about the Irish "ribbing" the Brits, while the Brits say "offensive crap". Interesting discussion for me, having a foot in both camps.

Well the British 'jokes' are usually just blatant insults about red-headed, toothless, gormless, drunken Paddy's. It's not the same as making fun of the Queen, the Prime Minister, the Black and Tans, Ian Paisley and RUC.

Fair enough Animavore, there are some people who still come out with that crap, and then when they get called out on it try to laugh it off with the old " I was only having a laugh, can't you take a joke?"
But the other side of the coin that I have had is when straight off the bat at a first meeting you get called out on the history of British oppression in Ireland, without any preamble or attempt to find out your state of knowledge or stance on the issues at hand.
" Alright mate nice to meet you."
"What about Cromwell then? Are you not ashamed of yourself?"

OK I exaggerate, but I have had interactions with people whose conversational openers were not much different in intent. (TBH
Irish Americans tend to go down that path a bit more predictably than Irish people themselves.)

Animavore wrote:

zoon wrote:(especially since they'd have no idea you were Irish simply by looking at you, unless you're rolling down the street in a leprechaun hat, wearing only the Irish flag as clothes and simultaneously drinking a Guinness whilst playing the fiddle).

No need to go that far. Having a clearly Irish Republic accent is enough for me to be wary in some parts of Northern Ireland. Just having a Dublin registration on your car is enough to get a brick through the window.

Just posting with an English accent appears to be enough to get me "quoted" writing things about the Irish which I didn't write.

Scarlett wrote:I can't think of any personal traits that get used in banter against the English in the same way as there is about the Irish and Scots. We're all ginger, thick, tight-fisted, drunken, deep-fry all our food, sponge off the English etc. I genuinely can't think of anything similar said the other way.

They don't have to be personal traits. "English bastard/wanker/cunt" would probably count as offensive crap.

Fallible wrote:

Scarlett wrote:I can't think of any personal traits that get used in banter against the English in the same way as there is about the Irish and Scots. We're all ginger, thick, tight-fisted, drunken, deep-fry all our food, sponge off the English etc. I genuinely can't think of anything similar said the other way.

They don't have to be personal traits. "English bastard/wanker/cunt" would probably count as offensive crap.

Yea, fair enough.

Why can't we all just get along?

Tell me about it! I just called myself a bad tarmac laying chancer, so I punched myself.

I was talking to a friend who lives in Galway last night - I did say something along the lines, "Ah, so you'll be having a cup of tea you will. You will, you will, you will." And I was told they were having a glass of whiskey, to which I replied, "that's shite, I'm drinking Lagavulin."

I just wanted to point out that it is possible for a Brit and a resident of the Republic to have a friendly banter, without descent into insult & history lessons.

My friend Root was one of the best. Sadly we lost touch. Her name was Ruth, but well...

There seems to be wires crossed here. When I was talking about Irish ribbing the Brits vs the British just insulting I was thinking along the lines of comedy, not of day to day heckling taunts. I was keeping in with the subject of the thread.

To give example, take Bernard Manning. This type of British humour involves laughing at stereotypes and caricatures of the members of former colonies which were established in the days of imperial colonialism to dehumanise the native subjects of British territories as unruly savages in need of civilising for their own good as a way of justifying their occupation.

The Irish don't have an equivalent of Bernard Manning. I don't even see how we could without a similar historical base of privilege to lauch such down puts from, except maybe if we had a comedian who ripped the piss out of travellers. Most of our humour is self-referential and self-debasing. When comedians do make fun of the British it's either taking pot-shots at the establishment or pointing out little condescending things they do without realising.

The only people I do know who make fun of the Brits based on caricatures are the Americans, French and Germans. Possibly the Ozzies.

Scarlett wrote:I can't think of any personal traits that get used in banter against the English in the same way as there is about the Irish and Scots. We're all ginger, thick, tight-fisted, drunken, deep-fry all our food, sponge off the English etc. I genuinely can't think of anything similar said the other way.

According to the Americans they're a bunch of tea-drinking, sycophantic lapdogs with poor dental hygiene.

Animavore wrote:

Scarlett wrote:I can't think of any personal traits that get used in banter against the English in the same way as there is about the Irish and Scots. We're all ginger, thick, tight-fisted, drunken, deep-fry all our food, sponge off the English etc. I genuinely can't think of anything similar said the other way.

According to the Americans they're a bunch of tea-drinking, sycophantic lapdogs with poor dental hygiene.

Don't forget terrible food and enjoying the odd caning.

Mr.Samsa wrote: In this situation, there is privilege associated not only with coming from a dominant white culture but also with looking white.

But privilege is a social construct, so it doesn't apply to white outwith that context.

Iceland for example, is white and was subject to aggression from non-whitey (like many other parts of europe) and didn't take part in any colonial activities (like those many other parts of europe).

it's false to claim all these people have privilege regardless of context just because they share visual characteristics with people who may enjoy privilege.

Animavore wrote:The Irish don't have an equivalent of Bernard Manning.

Trust me, plenty of Brits wish we'd never had a Bernard Manning too