Rates of HIV and other STIs in the LGBT community

[bartolomiow]

Rumraket,

I mean the kind of risky sexual behaviour that we're discussing. The kind that increases the risk of getting HIV.

Are you saying that gays do in fact engage in that kind of risky behaviour, and that this is perfectly fine to you?

Or, are you saying that they do not, but if they did, that would be fine with you?

[Rumraket]

I mean the kind of risky sexual behaviour that we're discussing. The kind that increases the risk of getting HIV.

Are you saying that gays do in fact engage in that kind of risky behaviour

Everyone who has unprotected sex is at risk of contracting HIV, yes. So are hospital workers who draw blood from patients, and yet they do it anyway because they think it's worth the risk. There is some risk of something going wrong and the healthcare worker ends up transmitting themselves with HIV.

, and that this is perfectly fine to you?

Are you dyslexic or just deliberately obtuse? Yes, fuckface, that's what I'm saying. The post you're responding to is one giant answer to your question.

Every. Behavior. Is. Risky.

Is sitting still a form of behavior? Yes!
Is heterosexual procreation a form of behavior? Yes!

Is it then risky? Yes! No exceptions.

[Rumraket]

Or, are you saying that they do not, but if they did, that would be fine with you?

Yes, that too. If it's between consenting adults, then it is their business. Sports cyclists put themselves at risk every time they go on the road, and they even put others at risk too.

[Spearthrower]

Do you think unprotected vaginal sex is not 'risky' in spreading STIs, bartolomiow?

Well, spearthrower, it's certainly not as risky as anal sex among gays. That's because gays are extremely promiscuous. They also don't use condoms as much, and that's why they have so many problems. They have no one else to blame.

So you're saying it IS risky then?

So are you similarly arguing that heterosexual men and women should stop having sex due to that risk?

Are you arguing that gays should continue having sex with lots of people without a condom despite the risks due to so many of them having it?

Are you arguing that heterosexuals shouldn't have sex because of the risk?

[Spearthrower]

Rumraket, are you saying that gays do in fact engage in risky behavior and that it's ok that they do so?

Are you saying that heterosexuals do in fact engage in risky behaviour and that it's ok that they do so?

[bartolomiow]

Rumraket,

Thank you for your response. We have now established that the following statement sums up your opinion :

"When gays voluntarily engage in highly risky sexual behavior such as having...
(1) anal sex
(2) with multiple partners
(3) without a condom

that is perfectly fine."


Thank you for your honesty. Let me know if any part of that statement is incorrect, or if it is in fact all correct.

[SafeAsMilk]

And we've established the following statement sums up your opinion:

Risky behavior from...
(1) gays is bad!
(2) anyone else is no problem!

Thank you for your honesty.

[Rumraket]

Rumraket,

Thank you for your response. We have now established that the following statement sums up your opinion :

"When gays voluntarily engage in highly risky sexual behavior such as having...
(1) anal sex
(2) with multiple partners
(3) without a condom

that is perfectly fine."

Yes, it's the price of this thing you might have hard of. We call it freedom. The freedom to engage in behavior that carries inherent risks.
The freedom to choose to live a sedentary lifestyle and eat junkfood puts hundreds of millions of people at risk of heart disease, stroke, diabetes and so many other things. Heart disease kills more than anything else in the western world.
The freedom to drink alchohol, or to drive a car. And yet we value the freedom to choose to do it more than the risk of the potential negative consequences it can carry.

Welcome to LIFE.

[bartolomiow]

Rumraket,

Thank you for your response. We have now established that the following statement sums up your opinion :

"When gays voluntarily engage in highly risky sexual behavior such as having...
(1) anal sex
(2) with multiple partners
(3) without a condom

that is perfectly fine."

Yes, it's the price of this thing you might have hard of. We call it freedom. The freedom to engage in behavior that carries inherent risks.
The freedom to choose to live a sedentary lifestyle and eat junkfood puts hundreds of millions of people at risk of heart disease, stroke, diabetes and so many other things. Heart disease kills more than anything else in the western world.
The freedom to drink alchohol, or to drive a car. And yet we value the freedom to choose to do it more than the risk of the potential negative consequences it can carry.

Welcome to LIFE.

Indeed.

So do you have any theories or could you at least speculate as to why so many gays choose to engage in highly risky sexual behavior such as having anal sex with multiple partners without a condom?

[Rumraket]

Rumraket,

Thank you for your response. We have now established that the following statement sums up your opinion :

"When gays voluntarily engage in highly risky sexual behavior such as having...
(1) anal sex
(2) with multiple partners
(3) without a condom

that is perfectly fine."

Yes, it's the price of this thing you might have hard of. We call it freedom. The freedom to engage in behavior that carries inherent risks.
The freedom to choose to live a sedentary lifestyle and eat junkfood puts hundreds of millions of people at risk of heart disease, stroke, diabetes and so many other things. Heart disease kills more than anything else in the western world.
The freedom to drink alchohol, or to drive a car. And yet we value the freedom to choose to do it more than the risk of the potential negative consequences it can carry.

Welcome to LIFE.

Indeed.

So do you have any theories or could you at least speculate as to why so many gays choose to engage in highly risky sexual behavior such as having anal sex with multiple partners without a condom?

Sure. Homo sapiens is a sexually reproducing species. We have sexual urges and we desire to engage in them more than we desire to stifle or suppress them. That's it. No more explanation needed. If you know the risks and do it anyway it's because you feel it is worth it.

[bartolomiow]

I want to make sure I understand you correctly. Let me know if I have it right...

You're saying that the reason why so many gays choose to engage in highly risky sexual behavior such as having anal sex with multiple partners without a condom is because they are horny, and also they want to reproduce, and that their urge to satisfy their horniness as well as their urge to reproduce outweigh the risk.

In other words they want orgasms and babies so much that they're willing to have unprotected anal sex with lots of men.

[SafeAsMilk]

Bartolomiow, do you have any theories or could you at least speculate as to why so many people choose to engage in highly risky behavior such as driving a car? I just can't understand it!

[Spearthrower]

And we've established the following statement sums up your opinion:

Risky behavior from...
(1) gays is bad!
(2) anyone else is no problem!

Thank you for your honesty.

DING DING DING DING!

We likes that special sauce, we does.

[SafeAsMilk]

Bartolomiow, while you're at it, do you have any theories or could you at least speculate as to why some people only seem to have trouble with risky behavior when gay people are involved, and why the folks who have this problem seem so obsessed with anal sex as the only form of risky behavior they want to talk about? I'd love to hear what you have to say, because you've clearly thought this one through and it couldn't possibly be a super obvious bias against gay people. Thanks!

[Spearthrower]

Bartolomiow I want to make sure I understand you correctly. Let me know if I have it right...

You're saying that the reason why so many heterosexuals choose to engage in highly risky sexual behavior such as having vaginal and anal sex with multiple partners without a condom is because they are horny, and also they want to reproduce, and that their urge to satisfy their horniness as well as their urge to reproduce outweigh the risk.

In other words they want orgasms and babies so much that they're willing to have unprotected vaginal and anal sex with lots of partners.

[SafeAsMilk]

I don't know about you, but every time I have sex, I'm thinking about having babies! It's the only reason I do it, really. I'm very Catholic like that.

[Thommo]

Abstinence would technically work to eliminate STDs, HIV and unwanted pregnancy if you could get people to do it.

From a public health rather than moral perspective teaching abstinence only has failed to be an effective strategy, which is why the approach that's been taken is education - make sure people are informed of the risks, make sure people know how to minimise the risks and prophylaxis - make sure people have pressure free access to contraception, screening and treatment (prejudice against gays has adversely affected this in the gay community).

Like unprotected vaginal sex unprotected anal sex is very risky. In many countries (but far from all) being the recipient of unprotected anal sex with an MSM is more risky than being the recipient of unprotected vaginal sex, both due to the higher prevalence of HIV in MSM and the slightly higher transmission rate.

The reasons for that are pretty complex, and often simply due to the mathematical properties of the networks involved and the asymmetries in some cases. Given the way the conversation has gone I'm not sure it's fruitful to explore that in any more detail, but a couple of the papers I linked do that, so the resource is there for those that want it.

In many respects this is all academic though, since the best policy response and the best individual behaviours are largely the same anyway - you're safer to have sex in a loving relationship with someone you can trust, you're safer to practise safe sex which in turn is safest when combining compatible methods (e.g. condoms + oral contraceptive, condoms + PrEP), you keep other people safest when you take responsibility and visit the clinic if you have indulged in risky behaviour. It is vitally important that condoms are put on correctly, which involves being taught how.

I think all of that is generally good advice for all of us, whether gay or straight, but ultimately it's not my job to give advice and nobody is obliged to give two figs what I think anyway.

[Spearthrower]

I don't know about you, but every time I have sex, I'm thinking about having babies! It's the only reason I do it, really. I'm very Catholic like that.

Sex? Goodness, I don't do that! It's risky, dontcha know?

[Rumraket]

I want to make sure I understand you correctly.

No, you don't. Whatever you want, understanding isn't it.

Let me know if I have it right...

You don't.

You're saying that the reason why so many gays choose to engage in highly risky sexual behavior such as having anal sex with multiple partners without a condom is because they are horny

Uhh yes, what the hell else reason is there? Why does anyone have sex? Because they experience desire. Is this really something you didn't already know?

and also they want to reproduce

That's the evolutionary reason why anyone experiences sexual desire in the first place: It has the potential to result in passing off genes.
But no, they don't have to literally desire to reproduce, merely to feel the desire to have sex.

and that their urge to satisfy their horniness as well as their urge to reproduce outweigh the risk.

Obviously yes. Why would anyone ever have unprotected sex if they didn't experience the desires greater than they fear the risks?

Was this not already obvious to you? What's next, I also need to confirm to you that people risk food poisoning because they feel the urge to eat more than they fear a night on the shitter? You needed this confirmed to you?

Isn't that true for both homo, bi, and heterosexual couples? Whether it is a desire for children, or a desire for relief of their horniness. When we have sex, anal or not, protected or not, for procreation or not, it is because we desire certain things more than we fear the risks associated with them?

I have to keep asking, is this really something you needed to come here to be told because you didn't already know it?

in other words they want orgasms and babies so much that they're willing to have unprotected anal sex with lots of men.

Yes, same is true for heterosexual sex. The people who have unprotected sex obviously desire to satisfy their urges more than they fear the risks.

[Rumraket]

I don't know about you, but every time I have sex, I'm thinking about having babies! It's the only reason I do it, really. I'm very Catholic like that.

I often feel a desire to sustain cellular homeostasis.

I don't feel hungry, or cold or hot, or the desire to eat and drink. No, I feel the urge to sustain homeostasis. It feels like... wanting to eat and drink. Oh wait...