Humankind is fascinating as it proposes another way for the lion to lay down with the lamb

Clive Durdle wrote:

It's as if Jesus hadn't existed in Paul's time, or when he was said to be writing; supposedly just one generation after Christ.

Why is this so difficult to see? Is there something about the translations that this is blurred because all translations assume the gospels? What would the Pauline stuff read like without the gospels and acts?

Beg pardon, I don't quite catch your meaning, can you explain please?

can you say more, I don’t know what you do not understand!

what( do you mean that translation "assumes gospel" and that it blurs rendition of the pauline stuff?

Is it about this? I see at least four completely separate strands being pulled together, the writing of Paul, various sects like the Essenes, some good news stories, possibly started by Seneca or his students, and the destruction of Jerusalem.

These strands were edited together at some point to make the story we have. Forensic methods should be able to tease out these threads. Pauline stuff is obviously about a future messiah. Acts should be read as completely invented stories to glue everything together. It was a pretty successful job, as it has invented a history

Other stuff might have been written to order,like buttressing on a cathedral, to hold together weak bits

Does not Paul write that he found his Christ in the scriptures?

Does not Paul write about THE Christ?

Clive Durdle wrote:Does not Paul write that he found his Christ in the scriptures?

Romans 1:1-2

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh

1 Corinthians 15:3-4

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Galatians 3:8ff

Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Based on Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18

Clive Durdle wrote:Does not Paul write that he found his Christ in the scriptures?

Cann't tell, never could stomach that tripe myself, and I studied rather carefully the gospels and acts...

but whoever says so is a liar, as the messiah from jewish scripture and Jesus are two different and irreconcilable entities.

Clive Durdle wrote:Humankind is fascinating as it proposes another way for the lion to lay down with the lamb

Miscegenation!

RealityRules wrote:

Clive Durdle wrote:Does not Paul write that he found his Christ in the scriptures?

Romans 1:1-2

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh

1 Corinthians 15:3-4

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Galatians 3:8ff

Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Based on Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18

A translation of Paul’s writing that talks about Yahweh’s anointed saviour deletes all capital letters and checks carefully for unconscious references to gospels that did not exist for sixty and more years would be very interesting.

I think Paul was tweaking Judaism

Just looking at Roman’s 1 1 and it can be translated as the servant of the annointed saviour of Yahweh

The Hebrew Bible does say his name will be Emanuel

Could be a metaphor, since that name means "god (is) with us"

I was listening to AronRa's conversation with Marlon, and at some point Marlon brought up the Romans description (from Pontius Pilate), and Aron said that doesn't exist or he can't find it? Is that true that even the Romans don't have text about a guy they helped crucify?

https://youtu.be/zddAjCjK6i0?t=4044


*Edit* correction, "Pontius Pilate"

JustStarDust wrote:I was listening to AronRa's conversation with Marlon, and at some point Marlon brought up the Romans description (from Pontius Pilate), and Aron said that doesn't exist or he can't find it? Is that true that even the Romans don't have text about a guy they helped crucify?

https://youtu.be/zddAjCjK6i0?t=4044


*Edit* correction, "Pontius Pilate"

AronRa says the only [Roman] thing we’ve got for Pontius Pilate Is the [Roman] inscription [on the Pilate Stone] (we also have accounts of Pilate by Philo of Alexandria and by Josephus, though one author seems skeptical of The Stone, which is interesting given she's written book about Pilate, albeit a contrived montage, Pilate: the Biography of an Invented Man - a review here).

I presume Marlon was asking about accounts in Pilate’s name about Jesus.

There are texts in the names of Romans such as Suetonius, Tacitus, & Pliny the Younger that variably mention Christ, Chrestus, Christians, or Chrestianos, but one could dispute the veracity or significance (or both) of all three ( I won’t now).

A longish thing with some humor comparing the Christian canon with the Batman canon.

Just because all the historicists and most (if not all) of the mythicists (including Price, Carrier, Doherty et al) seem convinced of the proposition that Paul (with no extra-biblical attestations - other than Seneca) existed, do we have to necessarily agree?

RealityRules wrote:Paul's attestation is unlikely, and probably irrelevant; at least in the first instance. The provenance of the letters attributed to him is probably more relevant, as would the nature of the communities the letters address or are addressed to (something we know nothing of).

By giving Paul a free run in the historicity stakes all the above follows. But what happens when we explore the proposition that Paul did not exist, and whoever it was that forged the "inauthentic" Pauline letters (including the letter exchange with Seneca) also simply fabricated those letters of Paul which are today considered "authentic"?

Why do the Pauline letters turn up in Marcion's hands?

Because Eusebius and other church sources suggest they did?

Furthermore, the nature and content of the letters themselves is noteworthy , eg., Jesus is called a Mystery' enough times to wonder why -

Colossians 2:2 -

My purpose is that 'they' may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that 'they' may have the full riches of complete understanding in order that 'they' may know the Mystery of God, namely Christ

Colossians 4:3 -

And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the Mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.

Athanasius tells us that the Greeks derided the mystery that the Christians adored.
What did these Greeks know or believe?

Many passages talk about Jesus' coming as if it's still to happen: a one and only coming. This is only some of them -

Philippians 1:6 -


... until 'the day' of Jesus Christ

2 Thessalonians 1:7 -


... when the Lord Jesus is Revealed from heaven with his mighty angels ..

Colossians 3:4 -


When Christ who is 'our life' Appears

1 Thessalonians 3:13 -


at the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints

1 Thessalonians 4:15 -


... until the Coming of the Lord

1 Thessalonians 5:23 -


at the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

There is little doubt that Jesus - in the political sense - came to the Roman Empire with Constantine.

Paul's letters as a result became prophetic to the Nicene Christians.

The proposition that Paul existed is a relic assumed by almost everyone looking at a reconstruction of Christian origins. I am inclined to question this proposition.

Robert Price said; " If New Testament scholars, at least those who retain any Christian faith, were to lose Paul, they wouldn’t know what to do! To whom could they appeal for a true vision of God and his purposes for mankind?"

Everyone is well aware that the Nicene Christians packaged their forged letter correspondence between Paul and Seneca as a preface to the circulation of the literature of Seneca. For more than a thousand years the church industry passed their own forgery off as genuine and authoritative. The proposition that Paul never existed and that all the letters attributed to him were forgeries of the Nicene church is not without its explanatory power.

Luke 16:16: The Good News of God's Kingdom Is Proclaimed and Everyone Is Forced into It

Acts 11:26 The disciples were first called Chrestians in Antioch" (At the council of Antioch in 325 CE)