pennypitstop wrote::picard:

+1

ispoketoanangel wrote:
Yes, that's a no, in this actualized world, you cannot go anywhere else than the freely decision you will make that God already knows about.

Who told you this ? Where did you learn about Molinism ? Your pastor ? Classes at school ?

You see that you're not making the point very well in your own words. What source did you have that convinced you ? Does that source have a better way of explaining the point ?

ispoketoanangel wrote:

Tbickle wrote:

ispoketoanangel wrote:

Tbickle wrote:

ispoketoanangel wrote:

Yes, He does.

Can I go somewhere else other than where God already knows I will go?

Answering no doesn't mean that your decision to go to a certain restaurant is not free, it just means you can't jump from one actualized world to another. If you will freely choose to go to McDonalds in this world, going somewhere else is what you would do in another world, a world that God didn't actualize.

So, that's a "no" I presume?

Yes, that's a no, in this actualized world, you cannot go anywhere else than the freely decision you will make that God already knows about.

That's double talk. You said that God knows where I'm going, I cannot do something other than what he already knows I will do so my future has already been decided. Regardless of whatever faux-decision making process I make after this will ultimately lead me to what has already been known.

I cannot have free will to choose if my choices exclude all other options but those that God already knows about. Aside from this implication, if God created all of us (including me), I was made in a particular fashion and in a certain setting that would incline me to particular restaurants or types of food over others I do not care for or that I may be allergic to. If our choices are indeed limited by any manner be it by divine knowledge that we cannot refute or by way of his design, I cannot actually realize full free will.

ispeaktoangelsnightly said
Of course you can only do what you will freely choose to do

but if god has already chosen your 'free choice' then you dont have free will, your just following a pre determined path.
is this a logical mistake?
if so why?

ispoketoanangel wrote:Of course you can only do what you will freely choose to do. Doing something else is what you would do in another world. Again, it does not follow that we are not free, you're just reformulating the same logical mistake.

Wrong, you have no idea of what logic is.

Choice is the ability to decide between two or more logically available alternatives. If I cannot choose other than your stupid fucking magic man knows I will choose, then I only have one thing I can choose, meaning no choice.

You're just repeating the same cretinous fucking nonsense, and it doesn't matter how many times you do so, you'll still be wrong.

Fail again.

Oh, and the guff about other worlds, you can save that for people who think that yarbollocks-conceivability amounts any more than pulling things out of your arse, until you can demonstrate that thewse other 'possible worlds' have any basis in reality. That isn't logic, it's apologetic arse-gravy.

Tbickle wrote:
That's double talk. You said that God knows where I'm going, I cannot do something other than what he already knows I will do so my future has already been decided. Regardless of whatever faux-decision making process I make after this will ultimately lead me to what has already been known.

I cannot have free will to choose if my choices exclude all other options but those that God already knows about. Aside from this implication, if God created all of us (including me), I was made in a particular fashion and in a certain setting that would incline me to particular restaurants or types of food over others I do not care for or that I may be allergic to. If our choices are indeed limited by any manner be it by divine knowledge that we cannot refute or by way of his design, I cannot actually realize full free will.

Yes, you have free will. You can freely choose to go to PIzza Hut, for example. In that scenario what God would know is that you would freely go to Pizza Hut.

What you seem to be saying is that, from the point of view of a particular world actualized by God (where you freely go to McDonalds, for example), you want to jump in another world where you freely choose to go to Pizza Hut. Of course you can't do that. You cannot change your destiny is a particular world actualized by God. But this has nothing to do with free will, but with trying to do the logically impossible. A world only has one path.

Are there actually any other actualised worlds? Or is this the only one?

hackenslash wrote:

ispoketoanangel wrote:Of course you can only do what you will freely choose to do. Doing something else is what you would do in another world. Again, it does not follow that we are not free, you're just reformulating the same logical mistake.

Wrong, you have no idea of what logic is.

Choice is the ability to decide between two or more logically available alternatives. If I cannot choose other than your stupid fucking magic man knows I will choose, then I only have one thing I can choose, meaning no choice.

You're just repeating the same cretinous fucking nonsense, and it doesn't matter how many times you do so, you'll still be wrong.

Fail again.

Oh, and the guff about other worlds, you can save that for people who think that yarbollocks-conceivability amounts any more than pulling things out of your arse, until you can demonstrate that thewse other 'possible worlds' have any basis in reality. That isn't logic, it's apologetic arse-gravy.

Being vulgar, and asserting the same thing over and over again, doesn't make you right.

You should calm down, read a modal logic book, and come back.

Crocodile Gandhi wrote:Are there actually any other actualised worlds? Or is this the only one?

How would Ispoketoanangel know, unless he claimed to be god himself.

Or unless he asks the odious Craig, and takes Craig's word for it. It's all just more smoke and mirrors from the faithful who love having a way to prop up their delusion.

ispoketoanangel wrote:

hackenslash wrote:

ispoketoanangel wrote:Of course you can only do what you will freely choose to do. Doing something else is what you would do in another world. Again, it does not follow that we are not free, you're just reformulating the same logical mistake.

Wrong, you have no idea of what logic is.

Choice is the ability to decide between two or more logically available alternatives. If I cannot choose other than your stupid fucking magic man knows I will choose, then I only have one thing I can choose, meaning no choice.

You're just repeating the same cretinous fucking nonsense, and it doesn't matter how many times you do so, you'll still be wrong.

Fail again.

Oh, and the guff about other worlds, you can save that for people who think that yarbollocks-conceivability amounts any more than pulling things out of your arse, until you can demonstrate that thewse other 'possible worlds' have any basis in reality. That isn't logic, it's apologetic arse-gravy.

Being vulgar, and asserting the same thing over and over again, doesn't make you right.

You should calm down, read a modal logic book, and come back.

Ah... the scent of a chess board covered in pigeon shit is strong in this one.

ispoketoanangel wrote:

hackenslash wrote:

ispoketoanangel wrote:Of course you can only do what you will freely choose to do. Doing something else is what you would do in another world. Again, it does not follow that we are not free, you're just reformulating the same logical mistake.

Wrong, you have no idea of what logic is.

Choice is the ability to decide between two or more logically available alternatives. If I cannot choose other than your stupid fucking magic man knows I will choose, then I only have one thing I can choose, meaning no choice.

You're just repeating the same cretinous fucking nonsense, and it doesn't matter how many times you do so, you'll still be wrong.

Fail again.

Oh, and the guff about other worlds, you can save that for people who think that yarbollocks-conceivability amounts any more than pulling things out of your arse, until you can demonstrate that thewse other 'possible worlds' have any basis in reality. That isn't logic, it's apologetic arse-gravy.

Being vulgar, and asserting the same thing over and over again, doesn't make you right.

And being polite and asserting the same thing over and over again doesn't make YOU right.

Did you see my questions about where you learned this stuff - and whether going to your source might give a better explanation that the failure you have delivered so far ??

You should calm down, read a modal logic book, and come back.

Don't fucking tell Hack to read a book. He's better educated than you're likely to ever be.

You came here and made blind assertions about god's nature and god's knowledge. Now man up and support your assertsion. Get some help to do so, if you need help.

ispoketoanangel wrote:

Tbickle wrote:
That's double talk. You said that God knows where I'm going, I cannot do something other than what he already knows I will do so my future has already been decided. Regardless of whatever faux-decision making process I make after this will ultimately lead me to what has already been known.

I cannot have free will to choose if my choices exclude all other options but those that God already knows about. Aside from this implication, if God created all of us (including me), I was made in a particular fashion and in a certain setting that would incline me to particular restaurants or types of food over others I do not care for or that I may be allergic to. If our choices are indeed limited by any manner be it by divine knowledge that we cannot refute or by way of his design, I cannot actually realize full free will.

Yes, you have free will. You can freely choose to go to PIzza Hut, for example. In that scenario what God would know is that you would freely go to Pizza Hut.

Wrong! Having a choice means that I have the ability to decide between at least two options, without both choices being the same thing. I cannot have free will if my only choices include Pizza Hut, Pizza Hut, or Pizza Hut.

By the way, the fact that Pizza Hut is an option should show that God doesn't exist or else that he's a sadist.

What you seem to be saying is that, from the point of view of a particular world actualized by God (where you freely go to McDonalds, for example), you want to jump in another world where you freely choose to go to Pizza Hut.

Your continued use of "acutalized world" is nothing by nonsense to make your argument appear to mean something. I am not talking about some other world, so stop the strawman argument.

I am discussing my ability to have free will in connection to a deity with supposed omniscience and what the implications of this consist of. As far as I'm concerned, there is only one world and we are living in it.

Of course you can't do that. You cannot change your destiny is a particular world actualized by God. But this has nothing to do with free will, but with trying to do the logically impossible. A world only has one path.

Do me a favor, read your replies out loud before you hit "submit", perhaps it will save some of the embarrassment.

How the hell are the concepts of "free will" and "destiny" compatible? The world has one path? Again, one option does not allow for a choice, it's your only option!

ispoketoanangel wrote:
Being vulgar, and asserting the same thing over and over again, doesn't make you right.

Repeating yourself over and over does not make you right, regardless of level of vulgarity. A lesson you would do well to learn.

The only point being made is that there is no reason for God to provide evidence to people who would freely reject Him if they had the evidence they want.

So God could convince us he exists but doesn't wanna?

So it is not logically possible for God to earn our love without contravening free will? This God of yours sounds socially inept.

The coherence of theism, by Richard Swinburne.

Was that so hard? But given that we are talking about whether your self serving redefinition is the standard definition or not, how about giving us a reason to believe that this is not just some guy's opinion?

Perhaps because he knows you would freely reject his love if you had more evidence?

But I cannot predict this unless I know he exists and get to know him a bit better. If God can predict my response with certainty, apparently I do not have a say in the matter anyway so there goes my free will.

Also, numerous human beings have been able to earn my love over the years. Is God inferior to them?

Tbickle wrote:

Of course you can't do that. You cannot change your destiny is a particular world actualized by God. But this has nothing to do with free will, but with trying to do the logically impossible. A world only has one path.

Do me a favor, read your replies out loud before you hit "submit", perhaps it will save some of the embarrassment.

How the hell are the concepts of "free will" and "destiny" compatible? The world has one path? Again, one option does not allow for a choice, it's your only option!

Yeah, I noticed that. Thanks for pointing it out.

Predestination. Molinism is just Calvinism dressed up for the masses. Molinism is lipstick on a pig. You can dress 'em up but you still can't take 'em out in polite society.

Here's a discussion here about the modal fallacy of omniscience and free-will, for those interested in further reading:

http://beyondyourken.com/phoenix/Pages/92572-1.html

ispoketoanangel wrote:Here's a discussion here about the modal fallacy of omniscience and free-will, for those interested in further reading:

http://beyondyourken.com/phoenix/Pages/92572-1.html

You're quoting our very own GakuseiDon as your expert witness ? Ooh, that's so wonderful. That will work so well for you, I'm sure. Now you can PM him to join this thread. Do it, please.

ispoketoanangel wrote:Here's a discussion here about the modal fallacy of omniscience and free-will, for those interested in further reading:

http://beyondyourken.com/phoenix/Pages/92572-1.html

Great, now why don't you get back to defending your position?

hotshoe wrote:

ispoketoanangel wrote:

hackenslash wrote:

ispoketoanangel wrote:Of course you can only do what you will freely choose to do. Doing something else is what you would do in another world. Again, it does not follow that we are not free, you're just reformulating the same logical mistake.

Wrong, you have no idea of what logic is.

Choice is the ability to decide between two or more logically available alternatives. If I cannot choose other than your stupid fucking magic man knows I will choose, then I only have one thing I can choose, meaning no choice.

You're just repeating the same cretinous fucking nonsense, and it doesn't matter how many times you do so, you'll still be wrong.

Fail again.

Oh, and the guff about other worlds, you can save that for people who think that yarbollocks-conceivability amounts any more than pulling things out of your arse, until you can demonstrate that thewse other 'possible worlds' have any basis in reality. That isn't logic, it's apologetic arse-gravy.

Being vulgar, and asserting the same thing over and over again, doesn't make you right.

And being polite and asserting the same thing over and over again doesn't make YOU right.

Did you see my questions about where you learned this stuff - and whether going to your source might give a better explanation that the failure you have delivered so far ??

You should calm down, read a modal logic book, and come back.

Don't fucking tell Hack to read a book. He's better educated than you're likely to ever be.

You came here and made blind assertions about god's nature and god's knowledge. Now man up and support your assertsion. Get some help to do so, if you need help.

Considering his elementary error in modal logic, I doubt he's more educated as far as this topic is concerned.

Yes, we know all about assertions of the modal fallacy in this argument, and they all make the same basic error. They forget all about the possibility of the entity actually being wrong.

You're still failing, and you're not even failing in an original manner. You wouldn't believe how many credulous fucking morons have erected the same guff, and even a couple of quite intelligent people. The 'modal error' argument is still nonsense, though.

Oh, and I note that you're actually citing one of our members here. Ask him about Occam's Laser and how his argument is OL's bitch.

ispoketoanangel wrote:
Being vulgar, and asserting the same thing over and over again, doesn't make you right.

Don't expect us to take lessons in manners from someone whose original username here was AtheistsAreVermin, and whose debut was this starting this thread:
nontheism/why-do-the-verminous-and-wicked-atheists-t6428.html#p184006