Raliegh Marsden wrote:Your attitude stinks, paula. Get over yourself. I couldn't care less what gender you are. I see you have a scottish flag. Maybe it's because you're scottish, you never know. Or it could be because I detest people with dark hair. Or maybe I just don't like your name, have you thought of that?

hackenslash wrote:Sounds like somebody's had enough of having his brainfarts exposed to real thought and is looking for the martyr's death. Suicide by mod it is, then.

Raliegh Marsden wrote:Your attitude stinks, paula. Get over yourself. I couldn't care less what gender you are. I see you have a scottish flag. Maybe it's because you're scottish, you never know. Or it could be because I detest people with dark hair. Or maybe I just don't like your name, have you thought of that?

Raliegh Marsden wrote:Sennekuyl...

I have an issue with anxiety. I've had it since Jan 1st 2001. I had a really bad panic attack and since then I've always been on edge, worrying that I'll have another one. I've had a few since then. About 6-8. I can only think of one which came anywhere near to being as bad as the very first one (the rest have been very minor). But when I was having it, a part of me was enjoying it. Why? because I could totally feel that it was an opportunity to deal with anxiety. It was almost exciting. I was out with some friends having drinks, and I felt like going home, I had an overwhelming desire to be in my comfort zone. I got on a bus, and then I did something that I knew I would do : I got right off it after a couple of stops, and I completely turned that night around. I went back to the pub, I behaved in an extremely outgoing way, I ended up chatting up a girl and getting her number (I never called her but never mind), and then I went home when I genuinely felt like it. Then I chatted up another girl on the bus. Then I realised that I was on the wrong bus, which normally would freak me out, but I got off, walked into the nearest pub, dominated every conversation (dominated in a nice way - I just started talking to complete strangers), then I went home. My motto for the night was "create a positive memory of tomight", which I achieved. None of that would have been possible without a positive outlook. And no, alcohol didn't play a part because I didn't particularly drink much.

So actually I do know a little of what I'm talking about. We have a choice : Negative outlook (often called being "realistic"), and positive outlook. A positive outlook influences your thoughts, behaviour, emotions, and outcomes, and responses from others. It influences what you allow yourself to feel and think, and what you filter out. It opens your eyes to what's good, rather than overfocussing on what you perceive as bad.

How does this relate to "if it don't kill ya, it makes you stronger"? Well, putting aside the fact that that's not literally true in all cases (which I've already acnowledged), it goes to show that problems can be seen as an oppotunity for growth. I love the fact that I have an issue with anxiety and panic because, as much as I hate it (the experience in itself), I know that the qualities and attributes that it takes to overcome it are things which stay with you, and then you can apply them to other things (hence it makes you stronger), and you can be a good example to others on how to deal with stuff. Sometimes you have to go through a problem to truly understand it on a deep level. And from that, you learn things. A problem gives you a choice, which is to either sink or swim. If you swim, you pick up a skill, and knowledge (become stronger, more resillient, less likely to fall apart if it happens again). Another very simple example is this : If you learn a martial art, and you spar with someone, they're not trying to beat you up (kill you), they're encouraging you to summon what it takes to deal with the situation (become stronger).

Paula1 wrote:
This is a truly disturbing view on child rearing

I have three daughters, aged 24, 22 and 3. As you can see I have already brought up two children and I am in the process of the third. I have some quite specific questions to ask you with regard to the statements you have made

At what age do you advocate that smacking/spanking/shaking/shouting should start?
Bearing in mind that, alot of parents will agree when I say, their naughtiest time is around 12 months old to about 30 months old. They have started walking but have no idea of appropriateness or danger. I believe it is our job to teach them appropriate behaviour and how to avoid danger. No, it's not ok to stick your finger in the plug point or climb onto the window ledge, no it's not appropriate to hit your sister or to scream for treats. Personally, the thought of striking or shaking or even shouting at, what can only be described as a baby, for this very normal behaviour is abhorrent to say the least

At what point in your disciplinary process do you decide that smacking/spanking/shaking/shouting should start?
Immediately? Why bother with the educational part of the process, it takes patience
After a set of rules has been covered, e.g. Told once, told twice, they still don't conform so "smack"? Does the small child understand the rules you have set?
Once they have really pushed your buttons and you lose patience? You are then advocating taking your frustrations out on a small child with violence

How do you go about commanding respect from children? You think smacking/spanking/shaking/shouting, even as a last resort, will earn you respect? Bollocks, there is a massive difference between fear and respect, because what I actually think you may mean by "respect" is another catchy phrase that I believe suits your purpose here, "healthy fear". We've heard people talk about how their kids had a healthy fear of them, the knowledge of that strike made them toe the line. I bent over backwards to never frighten my children, it was my job to protect them, I got respect from my kids by loving them and guiding them gently. Did they push my buttons? Absolutely, I often had to leave a room, take deep breaths and return once calm. Love and respect go hand in hand when it comes to kids, that respect is rightly lost when you use physical punishment

At what age is phsical punishment of a child inappropriate? After the toddler age I have already referred to, the most trying years for any parent are a child's teenage years. You think smacking/spanking/shaking/shouting at a 15 year old is appropriate too. Maybe you think that that "healthy fear" will have kicked in by then and you won't need to, boy are you in for a shock. And with the lesson that they have learned that violence is the way forward don't be surprised when they smack you right back

And as an aside "A clip round the ear'ole" is a serious assault, if I saw a person strike a child around the head I'd remove the child from them myself

And with regard to your other "catchy phrase", it's still bollocks, it's been demonstrated by many to be bollocks and absolutely does not apply to assaulted children

Edit to add: With regard to your use of the word "stronger". Do you mean stronger than the person would have been without the physical punishment? Or stronger than other people in general?

sennekuyl wrote:
@ RM. The only verifications we have is the pixel colours on our screen, which give no indication to the state of melanin in your skin. It is also dishonest to bring that up with any reason to imply Paula1s motivations as racist.

While you are righting a thorough reply to the astute Paula1, Perhaps you can keep these points in mind? No answer required; it would in fact be disingenuous without reply to other more poignant posts.

... you can't go around interfering in how others bring up their kids.

(P1 of the thread) suggests we are talking from a societies point of view. Yet you keep arguing from an individuals reaction to adversity. Quotes such as this

you still have a choice of whether to become a "victim" (poor me) or get over it, pull your socks up and move on, and use what you've learned from the experience to improve your life.

You introduced this line of the debate as society dealing with adversity; either admit you were wrong, and the platitude doesn't and shouldn't be applied to societies members, or argue from that POV please.

It's one of those things that is very hard to convince someone who is determined to be pessimistic.

But if you get it, you know.

Moonwatcher wrote:

Paula1 wrote:
This is a truly disturbing view on child rearing

I have three daughters, aged 24, 22 and 3. As you can see I have already brought up two children and I am in the process of the third. I have some quite specific questions to ask you with regard to the statements you have made

At what age do you advocate that smacking/spanking/shaking/shouting should start?
Bearing in mind that, alot of parents will agree when I say, their naughtiest time is around 12 months old to about 30 months old. They have started walking but have no idea of appropriateness or danger. I believe it is our job to teach them appropriate behaviour and how to avoid danger. No, it's not ok to stick your finger in the plug point or climb onto the window ledge, no it's not appropriate to hit your sister or to scream for treats. Personally, the thought of striking or shaking or even shouting at, what can only be described as a baby, for this very normal behaviour is abhorrent to say the least

At what point in your disciplinary process do you decide that smacking/spanking/shaking/shouting should start?
Immediately? Why bother with the educational part of the process, it takes patience
After a set of rules has been covered, e.g. Told once, told twice, they still don't conform so "smack"? Does the small child understand the rules you have set?
Once they have really pushed your buttons and you lose patience? You are then advocating taking your frustrations out on a small child with violence

How do you go about commanding respect from children? You think smacking/spanking/shaking/shouting, even as a last resort, will earn you respect? Bollocks, there is a massive difference between fear and respect, because what I actually think you may mean by "respect" is another catchy phrase that I believe suits your purpose here, "healthy fear". We've heard people talk about how their kids had a healthy fear of them, the knowledge of that strike made them toe the line. I bent over backwards to never frighten my children, it was my job to protect them, I got respect from my kids by loving them and guiding them gently. Did they push my buttons? Absolutely, I often had to leave a room, take deep breaths and return once calm. Love and respect go hand in hand when it comes to kids, that respect is rightly lost when you use physical punishment

At what age is phsical punishment of a child inappropriate? After the toddler age I have already referred to, the most trying years for any parent are a child's teenage years. You think smacking/spanking/shaking/shouting at a 15 year old is appropriate too. Maybe you think that that "healthy fear" will have kicked in by then and you won't need to, boy are you in for a shock. And with the lesson that they have learned that violence is the way forward don't be surprised when they smack you right back

And as an aside "A clip round the ear'ole" is a serious assault, if I saw a person strike a child around the head I'd remove the child from them myself

And with regard to your other "catchy phrase", it's still bollocks, it's been demonstrated by many to be bollocks and absolutely does not apply to assaulted children

Edit to add: With regard to your use of the word "stronger". Do you mean stronger than the person would have been without the physical punishment? Or stronger than other people in general?

This is usually the problem with debating with the theists who come here (though RM is an extreme even by their standards). You post a well thought out response and you get nothing back or, in this case, told to piss off by someone who is obviously getting angrier by the day.

Now I have spanked but it is an event that is the rarest of the rare and I absolutely hate it. I only did it when absolutely nothing else worked and where a child's behavior was getting so bad it was going to lead to serious trouble for him and it was a one-time event. It got his attention, and made him realize there were consequences that he considered to be consequences. Then some real, long term changes could be slowly brought about. He could see how much I hated doing it and I think that more than anything affected him. It would never have been necessary had he been brought up earlier in life in a more loving environment where there were rules made by people who cared. But even though I still believe it was the best choice at that time, I still feel guilty about it and it wasn't even that much of a spanking.

But although I have done something like that, I would never presume the "right" to do it. I would never presume that even if a child is mine, that gives me the right to hit him or her. As for cuffing or slapping or pushing or shaking, those things are not only child abuse, they are sheer bullying.

I never in my life thought I would agree with anything that Bill O'Reilly said. But surprisingly he is very much against spanking or anything similar. Someone sent him an email saying that he was spanked as a child and he turned out to be an okay person. He "got over it". O'Reilly's response was, "So what's your point? That you were abused as a child and it didn't particularly scar you, therefore every child should be abused because you had to go through it? No. It's still abuse."

Shrunk wrote:What this thread needs is a bunny:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY-uM56BSrY[/youtube]

Moonwatcher wrote:[quote="Paula1";p="477238
Didn't you look after a grandson for a while? I seem to remember you talking about it on another thread

Orpheus wrote:
RM, I'm glad you were able to deal with your anxiety and turn the experience into something positive that made you stronger. It doesn't apply to all situations, though, and it's not for lack of effort, determination or imagination. For example, I have bipolar disorder. Part of the manifestation for me is crippling panic attacks. I have also had two massive, prolonged major depressive episodes. (The first was 7 or 8 months, the second lasted a year and a half.) I am, emphatically, NOT better for the experience.

Raleigh wrote:
Orpheus...

Well there you go. You've learned something. That's a positive in my book. But I don't believe that you're weaker, I really don't. What you're feeling is unpleasantness / unhappiness / whatever. But that is the experience, that's what you get, that's what it's all about. But if you play it right and keep focussed on moving forward, you will one day look back and realise things that maybe you don't realise now. Is it fair to say that when you're in the middle of a situation that it's harder to see the silver lining and the bigger picture?

Paula1 Wrote:
Didn't you look after a grandson for a while? I seem to remember you talking about it on another thread