Moses de la Montagne wrote:

John Platko wrote:Oh my. I never knew there was such a thing as Catholic creationism? How do they say the world was created?

The same way any of the Early Church Fathers did. Catholic schools teaching evolution does not predate On the Origin of Species; prior to Darwin, the Catholic Church was creationist all the way, and she even dug in her heels until Pius XII finally had a change of heart in the 1950s. So her capitulation was relatively recent.

I don't know why you're feigning surprise that there's "such a thing a Catholic creationism" when I already listed some examples for you earlier in the thread. And I'm still not clear on why you care either way, since you think any Catholic should be free to believe in whichever doctrines they choose. Just let the creationists be.

John Platko wrote:

Moses de la Montagne wrote:

John Platko wrote:Oh my. I never knew there was such a thing as Catholic creationism? How do they say the world was created?

The same way any of the Early Church Fathers did. Catholic schools teaching evolution does not predate On the Origin of Species; prior to Darwin, the Catholic Church was creationist all the way, and she even dug in her heels until Pius XII finally had a change of heart in the 1950s. So her capitulation was relatively recent.

I don't know why you're feigning surprise that there's "such a thing a Catholic creationism" when I already listed some examples for you earlier in the thread. And I'm still not clear on why you care either way, since you think any Catholic should be free to believe in whichever doctrines they choose. Just let the creationists be.

I'm not feigning anything. I'm not talking about what the Catholic Church did years ago, I'm talking about what they are teaching in Catholic schools now. Name a catholic high school that teaches the young earth story and/or rejects evolution.

KeenIdiot wrote:St. Michael's Inter-parochial School (now defunct)
Pensacola Catholic High (Depending on the teach of course, though the principal was Creationist as I recall)

Moses de la Montagne wrote:

John Platko wrote:

Moses de la Montagne wrote:

John Platko wrote:Oh my. I never knew there was such a thing as Catholic creationism? How do they say the world was created?

The same way any of the Early Church Fathers did. Catholic schools teaching evolution does not predate On the Origin of Species; prior to Darwin, the Catholic Church was creationist all the way, and she even dug in her heels until Pius XII finally had a change of heart in the 1950s. So her capitulation was relatively recent.

I don't know why you're feigning surprise that there's "such a thing a Catholic creationism" when I already listed some examples for you earlier in the thread. And I'm still not clear on why you care either way, since you think any Catholic should be free to believe in whichever doctrines they choose. Just let the creationists be.

I'm not feigning anything. I'm not talking about what the Catholic Church did years ago, I'm talking about what they are teaching in Catholic schools now. Name a catholic high school that teaches the young earth story and/or rejects evolution.

My apologies. I was merely responding to your claim that you "never knew there was such a thing as Catholic creationism," whereupon you proceeded to wonder how they thought the world was created, which seems a lot like feigning ignorance.

It's convenient that you're challenging us to name a Catholic high school that teaches creationism; how about you name a Catholic high school where the religious ed program teaches that papal infallibility and the Immaculate Conception are a lot of "man-made nonsense," as you believe?

I don't know for sure, but I would think the St. John Vianney School in Maple Hill, Kansas probably teaches creationism, since it's administered by Fr. Phil Wolfe's traditionalist order, the FSSP. (Fr. Wolfe, you'll remember, gives lectures on how evolution is "a false religious world view masqueraded as science.") According to St. John Vianney's web page, their "science programs are developed to accord with Christian values and teachings."

Agrippina wrote:So does Pope Francis not believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans then?

Agrippina wrote:So does Pope Francis not believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans then?

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1:1:7 wrote:389. The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the "reverse side" of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

390. The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s2c1p7.htm

THWOTH wrote:

Agrippina wrote:So does Pope Francis not believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans then?

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1:1:7 wrote:389. The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the "reverse side" of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

390. The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s2c1p7.htm

Seems like he should and must.

John Platko wrote:I still can't wrap my head around there being such a thing as Catholic creationism in the 21st century. And it's simply not true that the Catholic Church requires people to believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old. The fact that all 1.2 billion Catholics don't all believe the same thing is besides the point.

John Platko wrote:

It's convenient that you're challenging us to name a Catholic high school that teaches creationism; how about you name a Catholic high school where the religious ed program teaches that papal infallibility and the Immaculate Conception are a lot of "man-made nonsense," as you believe?

What a silly comment.

Animavore wrote:The Catholic Church do not accept creationism. They tend to try avoid anti-science beliefs that'll put them into disrepute (except when they do).
They generally adopt theistic evolution, that is guided evolution (not Intelligent Design). They also believe hominid apes evolved to a human stage and God breathed a soul into them.
I've never heard of Catholic creationism. It's certainly not taught anywhere in Ireland.

Animavore wrote:The Catholic Church do not accept creationism. They tend to try avoid anti-science beliefs that'll put them into disrepute (except when they do).
They generally adopt theistic evolution, that is guided evolution (not Intelligent Design). They also believe hominid apes evolved to a human stage and God breathed a soul into them.
I've never heard of Catholic creationism. It's certainly not taught anywhere in Ireland.

THWOTH wrote:

Agrippina wrote:So does Pope Francis not believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans then?

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1:1:7 wrote:389. The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the "reverse side" of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

390. The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s2c1p7.htm

Seems like he should and must.

Defining Figurative Language

Figurative language is language that uses words or expressions with a meaning that is different from the literal interpretation. When a writer uses literal language, he or she is simply stating the facts as they are. Figurative language, in comparison, uses exaggerations or alterations to make a particular linguistic point. Figurative language is very common in poetry, but is also used in prose and nonfiction writing as well.

There are many different types of figurative language. For example:
•Simile: A simile is a comparison that often uses the words like or as. One example of a simile would be to say, “Jamie runs as fast as the wind.”
•Metaphor: A metaphor is a comparison made between things which are essentially not alike. It is similar to a simile, but does not use like or as. One example of a metaphor would be to say, “Nobody invites Edward to parties because he is a wet blanket.”
•Personification: When something that is not human is given human-like qualities, this is known as personification. An example of personification would be to say, “The leaves danced in the wind on the cold October afternoon.”
•Hyperbole: Exaggerating, often in a humorous way, to make a particular point is known as hyperbole. One of example of hyperbole would be to say, “My eyes widened at the sight of the mile-high ice cream cones we were having for dessert.”
•Onomatopoeia: When you name an action by imitating the sound associated with it, this is known as onomatopoeia. One example of onomatopoeia would be to say, “The bees buzz angrily when their hive is disturbed.”
•Idiom: An idiom is an expression used by a particular group of people with a meaning that is only known through common use. One example of an idiom would be to say, “I’m just waiting for him to kick the bucket.” Many idioms that are frequently used are also considered clichés.
•Symbolism: Symbolism occurs when a noun which has meaning in itself is used to represent something entirely different. One example of symbolism would be to use an image of the American flag to represent patriotism and a love for one’s country.

Moses de la Montagne wrote:

John Platko wrote:I still can't wrap my head around there being such a thing as Catholic creationism in the 21st century. And it's simply not true that the Catholic Church requires people to believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old. The fact that all 1.2 billion Catholics don't all believe the same thing is besides the point.

No, that is the point. If, as you tell us, Catholics are welcome to believe or disbelieve in whatever they feel like, then why should it bother you if some Catholics choose to believe in creationism?

There's been no official dogmatic pronunciation on the issue, so there is actually some latitude for the faithful on this matter. (Unlike something like the Immaculate Conception, which is still considered binding. Even George Coyne believes in that one).

John Platko wrote:

It's convenient that you're challenging us to name a Catholic high school that teaches creationism; how about you name a Catholic high school where the religious ed program teaches that papal infallibility and the Immaculate Conception are a lot of "man-made nonsense," as you believe?

What a silly comment.

We Catholics don't think it's silly. You've chosen to hold up one particular recent trend as somehow authentically Catholic, but then you want to ignore all the traditional aspects of the Catholic faith that show your Platkonian Catholic Church for the insignificant liberal-fringe YouTube apostolate that it is. But we Catholics don't mind. In the final analysis, everyone makes their own truth. Your truth is as true as mine, or Edward Feser's or Pope Francis' or Father Barron's.

John Platko wrote:The truth is, there is no Platkonian Catholic Church and to think otherwise is silly. There's just the Catholic Church, and as Coyne pointed out, the members have never been in agreement on what they believe. My videos are not intended to represent a liberal-fringe, their purpose is simply to help people see the Catholic Church as it is - mostly fucked up with a few good smart priests like Father Foster trying to drag it kicking and screaming out of the dark ages. And I hold out a bit of probably unreasonable hope that if they look a little closer at a guy like Foster they might catch a glimpse at the few simple good and important ideas piled under the mountain of Vatican crap.

Moses de la Montagne wrote:

John Platko wrote:The truth is, there is no Platkonian Catholic Church and to think otherwise is silly. There's just the Catholic Church, and as Coyne pointed out, the members have never been in agreement on what they believe. My videos are not intended to represent a liberal-fringe, their purpose is simply to help people see the Catholic Church as it is - mostly fucked up with a few good smart priests like Father Foster trying to drag it kicking and screaming out of the dark ages. And I hold out a bit of probably unreasonable hope that if they look a little closer at a guy like Foster they might catch a glimpse at the few simple good and important ideas piled under the mountain of Vatican crap.

If the members of the Catholic Church have never been in agreement on what they believe, then how did they ever come up with the word "heretic"?

How did they decide that the Greeks were in schism, or that Martin Luther was excommunicated? The whole point of the Catholic Church being hierarchical was to establish an orthodoxy.

Your videos and your ideas are fringe, Platko. Just as most Catholic schools teach evolution now, most Catholics still believe in things like the Resurrection and the Virgin Birth and the Immaculate Conception. You can't say "we Catholics" unless you're willing to defend Catholicism in some substantial way. Or, if you can, then we Catholics think you're loony.

John Platko wrote:

Moses de la Montagne wrote:
If the members of the Catholic Church have never been in agreement on what they believe, then how did they ever come up with the word "heretic"?

"They" the members, did not. The Catholic Church is not a Democracy. A minority of Popes, Cardinals, Bishops and Priests make up what they say you have to believe. Thank God people don't and never did. Things are bad enough already, I can't imagine how bad they would be if all Catholics, like 1/7 of the people on earth, actually believed all that crap. Oh my God!

John Platko wrote:

How did they decide that the Greeks were in schism, or that Martin Luther was excommunicated? The whole point of the Catholic Church being hierarchical was to establish an orthodoxy.

Who said that was the whole point? I don't recall the sermon on the mount of hierarchical orthodoxy.

John Platko wrote:I have just as much right to say, "we Catholics" as the next Catholic. And I fully expect my Catholic ideas to sound loony to people who believe, fish and bread can materialize out of thin air, Virgins have babies, people who are really dead magically resurrect in their body, the Bible can be rationalized to be the perfect word of God or the perfect word period, or metaphysical gibberish rationalizing misogyny, homophobia, and other down right stupid shit like all sex must end with a penis trying to ejaculate in a vagina.