Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

If we have no hope, what are we living for?

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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#741  Postby THWOTH » Nov 06, 2014 8:32 pm

Hamster wrote:The Maya missed out all together.

They probably didn't want an afterlife anyway.

The Mayans seemed to have had a rich and varied culture across a wide swathe of the Americas, and though there does not appear to have been a single and/or unified religion certain commonalities between regions and ears have been inferred from glyphs and pottery etc. The notion of an afterlife is one of those commonalities.

In Mayan beliefs, the underworld is literally beneath the physical world, and could be reached through holes in the Earth. There is one place in the Guatemala, and another in Belize that are supposed to be entrances to the world of the dead.

Records indicate that the world of the dead in Classical Mayan culture, Xibalba was a dark and horrid place, ruled by the lords of death. The Quichi Maya of the 16th century continued this belief, while the Yucatec Maya believed in a similar realm called Metnal.

A myth from Classic Maya texts involved two twins who go into Xilbalba to rescue their father, and kill the lords of death. It is speculated that there may have been another afterlife, a paradise similar to the Aztec warrior's paradise. The Yucatec Maya certainly believed in such a place, a paradise of plenty, where a tree, yaxche, that stood at the center of the world shaded the souls of the deceased.

http://www.lifepaths360.com/index.php/t ... logy-2970/

In the pre-Spanish past, there may never have existed a unified concept of the afterlife. Among the Pokoman Maya of the Verapaz, Xbalanque was to accompany the dead king, which suggests a descent into the underworld (called xibalba 'place of fright') like that described in the Popol Vuh Twin myth. The Yucatec Maya had a double concept of the afterlife: Evildoers descended into an underworld (metnal) to be tormented there (a view still held by the 20th-century Lacandons), while others, such as those led by the goddess Ixtab, went to a sort of paradise. The ancestors of Maya kings (Palenque tomb of Pakal, Berlin pot) are shown sprouting from the earth like fruit trees which, together, constitute a blissful orchard. The so-called 'Flower Mountain' has more specifically been interpreted as a reference to an aquatic and solar paradise. To judge by the marine faunal remains found in Classic tombs and by the accompanying aquatic imagery, this sea paradise may have been the Maya variant of the rain god's paradise (Tlalocan) in Central Mexican religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_religion

Xibalba is described in the Popol Vuh as a court below the surface of the Earth associated with death and with twelve gods or powerful rulers known as the Lords of Xibalba. The first among the Maya Death Gods ruling Xibalba were Hun-Came (One Death) and Vucub-Came (Seven Death), though Hun-Came is the senior of the two. The remaining ten Lords are often referred to as demons and are given commission and domain over various forms of human suffering: to cause sickness, starvation, fear, destitution, pain, and ultimately death.

These Lords all work in pairs and are Xiquiripat (Flying Scab) and Cuchumaquic (Gathered Blood), who sicken people's blood; Ahalpuh (Pus Demon) and Ahalgana (Jaundice Demon), who cause people's bodies to swell up; Chamiabac (Bone Staff) and Chamiaholom (Skull Staff), who turn dead bodies into skeletons; Ahalmez (Sweepings Demon) and Ahaltocob (Stabbing Demon), who hide in the unswept areas of people houses and stabbed them to death; and Xic (Wing) and Patan (Packstrap), who caused people to die coughing up blood while out walking on a road. The remaining residents of Xibalba are thought to have fallen under the dominion of one of these Lords, going about the face of the Earth to carry out their listed duties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xibalba
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#742  Postby Durro » Nov 07, 2014 6:07 am

I find that with my conviction that there is NO afterlife, my life has more meaning, more value, more imperative to live a good life and leave the planet a bit better than how I found it. I view life as precious. I view our natural resources as finite, to be managed judiciously. Being mortal makes me consider our fragile position on this pale blue dot and makes me appreciate the good things I have in this unlikely life.

I did not come into this world with any purpose, but I have found my own path and created my own purpose, which includes caring for others, providing safety/security/education/love for my family and making a positive difference in areas I can have influence on.

I find it rather sad that some people fall victim to vacuous promises of an afterlife, if they only obey religious directives here. I think the "Kissing Hank's Ass" video sums up the absurdity perfectly.



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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#743  Postby carl » Nov 25, 2014 10:21 pm

Durro wrote:I find that with my conviction that there is NO afterlife, my life has more meaning, more value, more imperative to live a good life and leave the planet a bit better than how I found it. I view life as precious. I view our natural resources as finite, to be managed judiciously. Being mortal makes me consider our fragile position on this pale blue dot and makes me appreciate the good things I have in this unlikely life.


I might be wrong but I think you are comparing apples and oranges:

1) Your argument is similar to the hypothetical situation where someone is told they are going to die in 1 week so "use what little time you have left and live it well". If I were in such a situation, sure, I would derive more meaning and value, in part, because we tend to value what is scarce, especially time.

But then you use one of the common reasons already listed in the original post - the "I have hope for future generations' reason. Remember, this is not hope for YOU.

2) As I have mentioned before, one question we may want to entertain is: "What length of time, from today, do I prefer to have left?" Let's say you want to live until 100, hypothetically, as long as you're healthy, vibrant, and productive.

For a healthy individual who is still productive in society, is 100 really enough for you? Not for me. As a sentient human being, I want more. A lot more. God has set eternity in my heart so I naturally want more. I want Eternity. And if the Bible offers such a message of an eternal and productive life, I don't find it 'vacuous' as you do.

An eternal, productive life together with family and friends - "vacuous"? Really?
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#744  Postby carl » Nov 25, 2014 10:27 pm

Durro wrote:I find that with my conviction that there is NO afterlife, my life has more meaning, more value, more imperative to live a good life and leave the planet a bit better than how I found it. I view life as precious. I view our natural resources as finite, to be managed judiciously. Being mortal makes me consider our fragile position on this pale blue dot and makes me appreciate the good things I have in this unlikely life.



You do realize that everything, including this earth and universe, is doomed to go out of existence, right? Just the laws of physics.

In which case 'leaving this planet a bit better' only gives your life a 'relative significance' - that is, relative to the extremely temporary effect you had on others before it all goes out of existence. Which, in turn, means our life has no 'ultimate' significance. Only 'relative significance.

On the other hand, what you choose to call 'vacuous' is the complete opposite.
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#745  Postby Shrunk » Nov 25, 2014 11:03 pm

carl wrote:
Durro wrote:I find that with my conviction that there is NO afterlife, my life has more meaning, more value, more imperative to live a good life and leave the planet a bit better than how I found it. I view life as precious. I view our natural resources as finite, to be managed judiciously. Being mortal makes me consider our fragile position on this pale blue dot and makes me appreciate the good things I have in this unlikely life.


I might be wrong but I think you are comparing apples and oranges:

1) Your argument is similar to the hypothetical situation where someone is told they are going to die in 1 week so "use what little time you have left and live it well". If I were in such a situation, sure, I would derive more meaning and value, in part, because we tend to value what is scarce, especially time.

But then you use one of the common reasons already listed in the original post - the "I have hope for future generations' reason. Remember, this is not hope for YOU.

2) As I have mentioned before, one question we may want to entertain is: "What length of time, from today, do I prefer to have left?" Let's say you want to live until 100, hypothetically, as long as you're healthy, vibrant, and productive.

For a healthy individual who is still productive in society, is 100 really enough for you? Not for me. As a sentient human being, I want more. A lot more. God has set eternity in my heart so I naturally want more. I want Eternity. And if the Bible offers such a message of an eternal and productive life, I don't find it 'vacuous' as you do.

An eternal, productive life together with family and friends - "vacuous"? Really?


If it doesn't exist, then it's worse than vacuous. Especially if you insist on acting as if it does exist.
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#746  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » Nov 25, 2014 11:04 pm

carl wrote: Remember, this is not hope for YOU.


So what? I thought Christianity was supposed to hold selflessness in high regard...

Let's say you want to live until 100, hypothetically, as long as you're healthy, vibrant, and productive.


So bickering with anonymous skeptics online all day is your idea of "healthy, vibrant, and productive"?

As a sentient human being, I want more. A lot more.


It's not about what you want.


The religious organisation which wants to control me and use me for its own political and economic purposes has set eternity in my heart so I naturally want more


FIFY

An eternal, productive life together with family and friends - "vacuous"? Really?


If familiarity breeds contempt, then imagine what a whole eternity of it will do!
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#747  Postby Shrunk » Nov 25, 2014 11:05 pm

carl wrote:
Durro wrote:I find that with my conviction that there is NO afterlife, my life has more meaning, more value, more imperative to live a good life and leave the planet a bit better than how I found it. I view life as precious. I view our natural resources as finite, to be managed judiciously. Being mortal makes me consider our fragile position on this pale blue dot and makes me appreciate the good things I have in this unlikely life.



You do realize that everything, including this earth and universe, is doomed to go out of existence, right? Just the laws of physics.

In which case 'leaving this planet a bit better' only gives your life a 'relative significance' - that is, relative to the extremely temporary effect you had on others before it all goes out of existence. Which, in turn, means our life has no 'ultimate' significance. Only 'relative significance.


Yeah. So?
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#748  Postby Fallible » Nov 25, 2014 11:11 pm

carl wrote:
Durro wrote:I find that with my conviction that there is NO afterlife, my life has more meaning, more value, more imperative to live a good life and leave the planet a bit better than how I found it. I view life as precious. I view our natural resources as finite, to be managed judiciously. Being mortal makes me consider our fragile position on this pale blue dot and makes me appreciate the good things I have in this unlikely life.


I might be wrong but I think you are comparing apples and oranges:

1) Your argument is similar to the hypothetical situation where someone is told they are going to die in 1 week so "use what little time you have left and live it well". If I were in such a situation, sure, I would derive more meaning and value, in part, because we tend to value what is scarce, especially time.

But then you use one of the common reasons already listed in the original post - the "I have hope for future generations' reason. Remember, this is not hope for YOU.

2) As I have mentioned before, one question we may want to entertain is: "What length of time, from today, do I prefer to have left?" Let's say you want to live until 100, hypothetically, as long as you're healthy, vibrant, and productive.

For a healthy individual who is still productive in society, is 100 really enough for you? Not for me. As a sentient human being, I want more. A lot more. God has set eternity in my heart so I naturally want more. I want Eternity. And if the Bible offers such a message of an eternal and productive life, I don't find it 'vacuous' as you do.

An eternal, productive life together with family and friends - "vacuous"? Really?


"Oh, I'm so special! I want more! Wa wa wa!'' Get over yourself. God set fuck all in your heart. The credulous and the mendacious set crap in yer brain there, carl, and you've never had a clean-out. Stop judging everyone else by your views - you are not the gold standard.

My grandmother lived to 91. Beset by osteoporosis and missing one leg, she sat in her comfy chair one day and said 'do you know, duck? I've 'ad enough. I can go now, I'm ready''. And she did. Quite peacefully, having lived a long life and deciding that was enough. Eternity in your heart, if you please. Bollocks.
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#749  Postby Shrunk » Nov 25, 2014 11:11 pm

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
As a sentient human being, I want more. A lot more.


It's not about what you want.


Actually, that's exactly what carl's faith is all about. Pure narcissism and self interest.
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#750  Postby Fallible » Nov 25, 2014 11:12 pm

carl wrote:
Durro wrote:I find that with my conviction that there is NO afterlife, my life has more meaning, more value, more imperative to live a good life and leave the planet a bit better than how I found it. I view life as precious. I view our natural resources as finite, to be managed judiciously. Being mortal makes me consider our fragile position on this pale blue dot and makes me appreciate the good things I have in this unlikely life.



You do realize that everything, including this earth and universe, is doomed to go out of existence, right? Just the laws of physics.

In which case 'leaving this planet a bit better' only gives your life a 'relative significance' - that is, relative to the extremely temporary effect you had on others before it all goes out of existence. Which, in turn, means our life has no 'ultimate' significance. Only 'relative significance.


So fucking what?
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#751  Postby Paul Almond » Nov 25, 2014 11:13 pm

What form is this eternal, productive life going to take, anyway? What are you going to produce? Prime numbers?
If I ever start making posts like "On the banning and partial banning of words!" then I view my life as less than worthless and I hope that my friends here would have a collection to pay for ninjas to be sent to my home to kill me*. (*=humanely)
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#752  Postby Fallible » Nov 25, 2014 11:15 pm

:tehe:
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#753  Postby Ven. Kwan Tam Woo » Nov 25, 2014 11:19 pm

carl wrote:
Durro wrote:I find that with my conviction that there is NO afterlife, my life has more meaning, more value, more imperative to live a good life and leave the planet a bit better than how I found it. I view life as precious. I view our natural resources as finite, to be managed judiciously. Being mortal makes me consider our fragile position on this pale blue dot and makes me appreciate the good things I have in this unlikely life.



You do realize that everything, including this earth and universe, is doomed to go out of existence, right? Just the laws of physics.

In which case 'leaving this planet a bit better' only gives your life a 'relative significance' - that is, relative to the extremely temporary effect you had on others before it all goes out of existence. Which, in turn, means our life has no 'ultimate' significance. Only 'relative significance.

On the other hand, what you choose to call 'vacuous' is the complete opposite.



What the fuck is "ultimate significance"?? The whole point of "significance" is that it is a relative concept! Even if there was a Celestial Peeping Tom, anything which was significant to Him would be significant to Him, not "ultimately significant" in some bizarre abstract sense divorced from all context.
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#754  Postby Shrunk » Nov 25, 2014 11:23 pm

Ven. Kwan Tam Woo wrote:
carl wrote:
Durro wrote:I find that with my conviction that there is NO afterlife, my life has more meaning, more value, more imperative to live a good life and leave the planet a bit better than how I found it. I view life as precious. I view our natural resources as finite, to be managed judiciously. Being mortal makes me consider our fragile position on this pale blue dot and makes me appreciate the good things I have in this unlikely life.



You do realize that everything, including this earth and universe, is doomed to go out of existence, right? Just the laws of physics.

In which case 'leaving this planet a bit better' only gives your life a 'relative significance' - that is, relative to the extremely temporary effect you had on others before it all goes out of existence. Which, in turn, means our life has no 'ultimate' significance. Only 'relative significance.

On the other hand, what you choose to call 'vacuous' is the complete opposite.



What the fuck is "ultimate significance"?? The whole point of "significance" is that it is a relative concept! Even if there was a Celestial Peeping Tom, anything which was significant to Him would be significant to Him, not "ultimately significant" in some bizarre abstract sense divorced from all context.


Any number over infinity equals zero. So the relative significance of anything you would do in an infinite life would be exactly zero. Talk about futile and meaningless!
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#755  Postby BlackBart » Nov 25, 2014 11:53 pm

Paul Almond wrote:What form is this eternal, productive life going to take, anyway? What are you going to produce? Prime numbers?


Might as well. Apparently we're not going to have any wedding tackle in this celestial Narnia.
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#756  Postby Nebogipfel » Nov 26, 2014 7:13 am

carl wrote:

You do realize that everything, including this earth and universe, is doomed to go out of existence, right? Just the laws of physics.

In which case 'leaving this planet a bit better' only gives your life a 'relative significance' - that is, relative to the extremely temporary effect you had on others before it all goes out of existence. Which, in turn, means our life has no 'ultimate' significance. Only 'relative significance.


You still haven't explained why this is a problem. Just what is ultimate significance anyway?
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Re: AW: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#757  Postby Scar » Nov 26, 2014 7:24 am

Nebogipfel wrote:
carl wrote:

You do realize that everything, including this earth and universe, is doomed to go out of existence, right? Just the laws of physics.

In which case 'leaving this planet a bit better' only gives your life a 'relative significance' - that is, relative to the extremely temporary effect you had on others before it all goes out of existence. Which, in turn, means our life has no 'ultimate' significance. Only 'relative significance.


You still haven't explained why this is a problem. Just what is ultimate significance anyway?

And why do we need it and how does pretending a god exist change anything about the situation?
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#758  Postby Goldenmane » Nov 26, 2014 7:25 am

Cthulhu's Trilby wrote:
Goldenmane wrote:
Cthulhu's Trilby wrote:What if God isn't good at all and he just wants souls to torment for eternity, but for some reason the only way he can get them is to get people to willingly accept him?


Oooh...

I'm currently working on a little script/story in which Yahweh, being rendered powerless by iron chariots, cannot do big impressive miracles any more due to all the steel cars and such.

Might include this shit with it.


Use it as the big final twist when God gets his powers back only for the protagonist(s) to discover the horrors they've unleashed.

As long as I can play Celestial Chorister # 3 in the film.


I'll even give you a writer's credit. :thumbup:
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#759  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Nov 26, 2014 7:35 am

carl wrote:
Durro wrote:I find that with my conviction that there is NO afterlife, my life has more meaning, more value, more imperative to live a good life and leave the planet a bit better than how I found it. I view life as precious. I view our natural resources as finite, to be managed judiciously. Being mortal makes me consider our fragile position on this pale blue dot and makes me appreciate the good things I have in this unlikely life.


I might be wrong but I think you are comparing apples and oranges:

I know I'm not wrong when I state that you keep slinging random fallacies at your interlocutors to make it seem you're refuting them. :nono:

carl wrote:1) Your argument is similar to the hypothetical situation where someone is told they are going to die in 1 week so "use what little time you have left and live it well". If I were in such a situation, sure, I would derive more meaning and value, in part, because we tend to value what is scarce, especially time.

But then you use one of the common reasons already listed in the original post - the "I have hope for future generations' reason. Remember, this is not hope for YOU.

And this asinine 'rebuttal' has already been eviscerated for the shite that it is. Do keep up carl.

carl wrote:2) As I have mentioned before, one question we may want to entertain is: "What length of time, from today, do I prefer to have left?" Let's say you want to live until 100, hypothetically, as long as you're healthy, vibrant, and productive.

Completely irrelevant. The point remains that your life is finite.

carl wrote:For a healthy individual who is still productive in society, is 100 really enough for you? Not for me. As a sentient human being, I want more. A lot more. God has set eternity in my heart so I naturally want more. I want Eternity. And if the Bible offers such a message of an eternal and productive life, I don't find it 'vacuous' as you do.

Appeal to emotion and wishful thinking fallacies.
Believing something because it's what you desire is one of the silliest and fallacious reasons to believe something.

carl wrote:An eternal, productive life together with family and friends - "vacuous"? Really?

Evidence for the afterlife being this way?
According to Christianity, the afterlife is nothing more than eternal worship of god.
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Re: Without Hope for an Afterlife, What Are We Living For?

#760  Postby BlackBart » Nov 26, 2014 7:36 am

Nebogipfel wrote:Just what is ultimate significance anyway?

Wasn't it one of Dolph Lungren's movies? :ask:
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