questioner121 wrote:

95Theses wrote:First off,

Personally I have seen many people claim that mohammed was just following the standards of the time when he consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was 9, it's the standard defence, but that is why I asked you if 'it is ever acceptable for a middle aged man to have sex with a nine year old girl?'

Mohammed was 52 when this happened.

For me the worst thing about this is that even were you to argue that it was the norm for the times, and that women attained maturity at a younger age, I find it incredibly creepy that :

Sahih Muslim wrote:A'isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent them to her

http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/031_smt.html

So he used to sit and watch her play with dolls with her friends before they had sex

If we wish to test him by the standards of the time, we run into another problem. Her father Abu Bakir was a close friend for him and he should have been obliged to treat Aisha like an Uncle. By the standards of the day it was highly unethical to marry the daughters of your close friends.

However as a muslim (and I assume you are, feel free to tell me otherwise if you are just interested in Islam as an outsider) you have a major problem with your not supporting his kiddy fiddling ways, because of Uswa Hasana,

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Uswa_Hasana

This is the concept that according to the koran (which remember is the perfect word of allah) Mohammed was the 'Perfect human' who could do no wrong. The koran even call his morality 'sublime'

Koran 68:4 wrote:And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality.

Now, Mohammed being perfect as stated by the koran is surely not up for debate here? this is a central tenant of the muslim faith, and why muslims worldwide rioted because a few people drew pictures of him with a bomb in his turban.

This combination of hadith and koran is why countries like Saudi Arabia allow child rape in the guise of 'marriage' because mohammed did it, and allah says mohammed was perfect, therefore it must be OK. Saudi Arabia (and others) didn't just invent this, they came to it by the most careful study of the koran and hadith they could.

For the umpteenth time YOU ARE NOT ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT WETHER AISHA WAS NINE WHEN MOHAMMED FUCKED HER, YOU ARE ARGUING WITH ESTABLISHED ISLAMIC SCHOLARSHIP If you want to trot out a weak defence based on what one person told you, be prepared for me to quote back at you volumes of established works by islamic scholars, both believers and secular. In fact I find it hard to even find a reputable source that denies it.

Of course your local imam might disagree, but if you and through you, him, cannot provide some pretty well documented evidence for this I'm going to just dismiss it as one mans apologetics aimed at providing a nice face of islam to the infidels, and therefore worthless and meaningless. As people here are wont to say Show me the fuckin evidence

Now onto the claim that the koran doesn't explicitly permit sex with prebuescent girls (which by the way says nothing about maturity)

I think we are both agreed that according to the koran it is OK to marry and have sex with say an 11 year old girl as long as she has her period, which to me is fucking disgusting anyway ....... But I digress

We are going to have to deal with translations of the koran here, because there are some dodgy translation out there, made with the specific intent of hiding this from the infidels so we don't get up in arms about it. If you or your 'respected source' wants to argue, I ask that you get him to find fault in the translation and not just hand wave away and say 'this isn't a correct translation' I want to know Why it's incorrect.

Wikislam provides a very nice summary of the verse, with a very well referenced translation, if your expert disagrees with this translation, please explain What the problems with it are.

Detailed analysis of the verse in Arabic
: http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Quran

Theses, I though you'd started seeing sense and had started using better language. However I was wrong and you're the same as all the other arrogant atheists who comment the way you do. Go and believe whatever you want, whatever makes you happy. Be all want to be and call it freedom or truth. I'm not going to debate with ppl like yourself. The quran does mention ppl like you. It says debate with them in a way which is better than the way they debate. But if they become arrogant and indecent then say "peace" and walk away from them. So I will humbly walk away.

My sincere apologies to anyone who was offended by my comments or where I have falsely accused them of something of which they did not do. Thanks for all the decent comments.

One day you will know the truth no matter what it is. Peace to you all.

PS. If anyone does want to debate with me sincerely and in a decent way, then pls IM.

95Theses wrote:First off,

Personally I have seen many people claim that mohammed was just following the standards of the time when he consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was 9, it's the standard defence, but that is why I asked you if 'it is ever acceptable for a middle aged man to have sex with a nine year old girl?'

Mohammed was 52 when this happened.

For me the worst thing about this is that even were you to argue that it was the norm for the times, and that women attained maturity at a younger age, I find it incredibly creepy that :

Sahih Muslim wrote:A'isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent them to her

http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/031_smt.html

So he used to sit and watch her play with dolls with her friends before they had sex

If we wish to test him by the standards of the time, we run into another problem. Her father Abu Bakir was a close friend for him and he should have been obliged to treat Aisha like an Uncle. By the standards of the day it was highly unethical to marry the daughters of your close friends.

However as a muslim (and I assume you are, feel free to tell me otherwise if you are just interested in Islam as an outsider) you have a major problem with your not supporting him having sex with a prepubescent child, because of Uswa Hasana,

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Uswa_Hasana

This is the concept that according to the koran (which remember is the perfect word of allah) Mohammed was the 'Perfect human' who could do no wrong. The koran even call his morality 'sublime'

Koran 68:4 wrote:And most surely you conform (yourself) to sublime morality.

Now, Mohammed being perfect as stated by the koran is surely not up for debate here? this is a central tenant of the muslim faith, and why muslims worldwide rioted because a few people drew pictures of him with a bomb in his turban.

This combination of hadith and koran is why countries like Saudi Arabia allow men to have sex with pre pubescent children in the guise of 'marriage' because mohammed did it, and allah says mohammed was perfect, therefore it must be OK. Saudi Arabia (and others) didn't just invent this, they came to it by the most careful study of the koran and hadith they could.

For the umpteenth time YOU ARE NOT ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT WETHER AISHA WAS NINE WHEN MOHAMMED HAD SEX WITH HER, YOU ARE ARGUING WITH ESTABLISHED ISLAMIC SCHOLARSHIP If you want to trot out a weak defence based on what one person told you, be prepared for me to quote back at you volumes of established works by islamic scholars, both believers and secular. In fact I find it hard to even find a reputable source that denies it.

Of course your local imam might disagree, but if you and through you, him, cannot provide some pretty well documented evidence for this I'm going to just dismiss it as one mans apologetics aimed at providing a nice face of islam to the infidels, and therefore worthless and meaningless. As people here are wont to say Show me the evidence

Now onto the claim that the koran doesn't explicitly permit sex with prebuescent girls (which by the way says nothing about maturity)

I think we are both agreed that according to the koran it is OK to marry and have sex with say an 11 year old girl as long as she has her period, which to me is morally abhorrent anyway ....... But I digress

We are going to have to deal with translations of the koran here, because there are some dodgy translation out there, made with the specific intent of hiding this from the infidels so we don't get up in arms about it. If you or your 'respected source' wants to argue, I ask that you get him to find fault in the translation and not just hand wave away and say 'this isn't a correct translation' I want to know Why it's incorrect.

Wikislam provides a very nice summary of the verse, with a very well referenced translation, if your expert disagrees with this translation, please explain What the problems with it are.

Detailed analysis of the verse in Arabic
: http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Quran

questioner121 wrote:Do all atheists have this mentality where they deliberately like to insult and antagonise ppl rather than contribute to a debate in a civilised way?

I'm sure that if the ppl who have commented in such a vile way were doing this in public they would shit their pants and dare not insult the person/ppl they were debating with. This just shows the personality of these ppl who hide behind computers screen's and mock idiotically, whereas if they were in public they would behave so nicely as if to show that they are so polite and intelligent.

To the vile atheists, read thru your comments and pat yourself on the back for showing how intelligent you non believers are.

95Theses wrote:

Now why hasn't this surprised me?

questioner121 wrote:Thanks for the apology 95Theses. I'm a bit tied up with work at the moment. I have some serious financial issues to clear up....and yes I have prayed for it to be resolved in my favour.

Alan B wrote:

questioner121 wrote:Thanks for the apology 95Theses. I'm a bit tied up with work at the moment. I have some serious financial issues to clear up....and yes I have prayed for it to be resolved in my favour.

My Bold.
Mmmm! That should interesting.
What's Allah going to do? Magically alter the Koran?
Better save all your copies in an Allah proof vault, quick!

dyet-b wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:Hi friends

A single sentence or a verse without the text and the context could be sometimes misleading.
One cannot correctly understand the meaning of a word unless one knows the whole sentence in which it has been used; the value of a sentence could be best understood in a passage, and of a passage is best understood in a chapter. The reference to the context is therefore most essential for a useful discussion.

This is nothing but a common sense; everybody must agree to it, in my opinion.

Are there any differences to it or exceptions?

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Hi,

I think you left out a couple of levels of context.
So a passage is best understood in a chapter, but it doesn't stop there. A chapter is best understood in a book.

z8000783 wrote:Talking of which you still have some verse outstanding over here.

John

paarsurrey wrote:

z8000783 wrote:Talking of which you still have some verse outstanding over here.

John

Hi friends

People here live in their own stringent world; can't tolerate things differing with their viewpoint. If you people want to discuss things freely, you people may visit my blog; no compulsion however.

Thanks

paarsurrey wrote:

z8000783 wrote:Talking of which you still have some verse outstanding over here.

John

Hi friends

People here live in their own stringent world; can't tolerate things differing with their viewpoint. If you people want to discuss things freely, you people may visit my blog; no compulsion however.

Thanks

questioner121 wrote:

95Theses wrote:

Now why hasn't this surprised me?

LOL.

Thanks for the apology 95Theses. I'm a bit tied up with work at the moment. I have some serious financial issues to clear up....and yes I have prayed for it to be resolved in my favour.

InDeoRideo wrote:

questioner121 wrote:

95Theses wrote:

Now why hasn't this surprised me?

LOL.

Thanks for the apology 95Theses. I'm a bit tied up with work at the moment. I have some serious financial issues to clear up....and yes I have prayed for it to be resolved in my favour.

He ain't coming back...

Scot Dutchy wrote:They are all the bloody same. We should a thread where you could refer all these lovely people to. As Paula1 as said we have had just had two threads going the same way.
They want us to be polite to them. They want us to accept that their deity exists and they are only willing to discuss the bits they want to. The rest about rape, paedophilia, abuse of women and the treatrment of young girls is a no go area. It just does not exist even though we can produce video after video to prove otherwise.
They will never answer the fundimental question: Where is the scientific proof of the existance of their deity. We are expected to accept that it just exists. They are really a waste of time.