I'm currently reading the Quran, and I have to admit, it's quite a miracle... that anybody can believe in such a poorly written book.
I understand that it hasn't been "written" as a book, but still, in the same chapter, they don't seem to be able to stay on topic, they repeat the same things over and over again... And why all those rherotical questions ??

aban57 wrote:And why all those rherotical questions ??

prove-me-wrong wrote:http://www.quranmiracles.com

nobody has ever been able to debunk the great miracles in the holy quran!

I highly suggest you all look through that website. It is very enlightening.

Ahem. I provided you with your very own thread in which you can provide your arguments, always assuming of course that you actually have any, as opposed to one-line posts of links to apologetics websites whose assertions have already been flushed down the toilet hard. Care to accept the challenge, and provide us with proper, detailed, substantive arguments, in your own words, as opposed to lame copy-paste apologetics and links to websites containing nothing more substantial than ideological candy floss?

aban57 wrote:I'm currently reading the Quran, and I have to admit, it's quite a miracle... that anybody can believe in such a poorly written book.
I understand that it hasn't been "written" as a book, but still, in the same chapter, they don't seem to be able to stay on topic, they repeat the same things over and over again... And why all those rherotical questions ??

Tha'ts because it's based on oral delivery. Repeating things is memory device and the rethorical questions are to keep the audience involved.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

aban57 wrote:I'm currently reading the Quran, and I have to admit, it's quite a miracle... that anybody can believe in such a poorly written book.
I understand that it hasn't been "written" as a book, but still, in the same chapter, they don't seem to be able to stay on topic, they repeat the same things over and over again... And why all those rherotical questions ??

Tha'ts because it's based on oral delivery. Repeating things is memory device and the rethorical questions are to keep the audience involved.

Yep a bloody mess until it was tidied up, cut and edited. Still a load of shit mind but so is the bible.

Scot Dutchy wrote:Yep a bloody mess until it was tidied up, cut and edited. Still a load of shit mind but so is the bible.

At least there's more actual content in the bible.

Beatsong wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:Yep a bloody mess until it was tidied up, cut and edited. Still a load of shit mind but so is the bible.

At least there's more actual content in the bible.

Yes, and the bible, at least the OT, is told in chronologic order, which makes sense. And it's more ore less one continuous story.

There isn't even a story in the Koran. It reads like the stream-of-consciousness output of a psychotic. Even Mein Kampf is less of a rambling, incoherent piece of drivel than the Koran, and that's saying a lot.

Give the lad a chance! Let's hear all about Mo getting Allah to split the moon in two, un-noticed by most of the world's population. What ever Allah was, he/she/it was hopeless as a showman.

Calilasseia wrote:There isn't even a story in the Koran. It reads like the stream-of-consciousness output of a psychotic. Even Mein Kampf is less of a rambling, incoherent piece of drivel than the Koran, and that's saying a lot.

I have read both of them but I cant make my mind up which is the worst one.

They are both a load of crap.

The_Metatron wrote:Primus and I are quite enjoying reading Lafeyette Ron Hubbard's book, Battlefield Earth. It's a far better story than either of the Abrahamic fairy tales.

Makes you wonder why John Travolta stuffed up the movie version so badly, doesn't it?

The_Metatron wrote:That Johnnie Goodboy Tyler is the man, though actually, I prefer Robert the Fox.

I'll take your word for it.

I only found about the first half of that book (Battlefield Earth that is, the other book was never interesting or good to me) to be good, after a certain point it all started to get a bit...silly, even for sci-fi it took the humans be awesome and the saviours of everyone too far. At the time I had no clue who Hubbard was or what religion he started.

I see no more posts are forth coming from our Prove Me Wrong fellow, no defending his link or the content within. Just a spam of the link and then he flees, perhaps he thinks that the magic of linking the page to us will crack our atheist minds and all the truth of his religion will just fill us up. If it was me I would hang around and gloat people converted on the spot due to my masterful skills of argument by link.

ADParker wrote:

prove-me-wrong wrote:http://www.quranmiracles.com

nobody has ever been able to debunk the great miracles in the holy quran!

Or reliably verify that them either as far as I am aware. And that's the way they can be said to be of any value.

YOU LIE!

Every single miracle has been verified on that website! It does not only state the relevant ayah verse, but also an explanation of the science or divine numerical pattern that provides the context!!!!!

prove-me-wrong wrote:I highly suggest you all look through that website. It is very enlightening.

I thought you were interested in debate. Tell you what; why don't you describe what you consider to be the best, most convincing/revealing one, and we can discuss it from there?

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/10/endless-miracles-in-the-basmalah/

How can you explain for example the 10 numerical patterns found in the basmallah (the arabic phrase for "In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful")? Do you really think it's just coincidence? What is the likelyhood of finding such a patterns in any manmade book? There were no computers hundreds of years ago that could so perfectly align hidden numerical patterns into the quran!!!!

How do you explain the miracle of number 19?!

prove-me-wrong wrote:

ADParker wrote:

prove-me-wrong wrote:http://www.quranmiracles.com

nobody has ever been able to debunk the great miracles in the holy quran!

Or reliably verify that them either as far as I am aware. And that's the way they can be said to be of any value.

YOU LIE!

He does not. Nor will typing things in all caps make them true.

prove-me-wrong wrote:Every single miracle has been verified on that website!

Correction every miracle on that site has been:
A. Made up.
B. Defined so vaguely it will can always be interpeted to be true.

prove-me-wrong wrote:It does not only state the relevant ayah verse, but also an explanation of the science or divine numerical pattern that provides the context!!!!!

There is no such thing as a scientific explanation of divine numerical patterns.

prove-me-wrong wrote:

ADParker wrote:

prove-me-wrong wrote:I highly suggest you all look through that website. It is very enlightening.

I thought you were interested in debate. Tell you what; why don't you describe what you consider to be the best, most convincing/revealing one, and we can discuss it from there?

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/10/endless-miracles-in-the-basmalah/

Examples, not links please.

prove-me-wrong wrote:How can you explain for example the 10 numerical patterns found in the basmallah (the arabic phrase for "In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful")?

People wrote these things based on numerical patterns to create the illusion that they were divinely inspired.

prove-me-wrong wrote:Do you really think it's just coincidence?

No, intentional. Intentionally set up by humans to trick other humans.

prove-me-wrong wrote:What is the likelyhood of finding such a patterns in any manmade book?

Very likely. The same patterns occur in Jewish, Christian, Hindu and other religious texts. Texts which all claim to be divine revelations from the only true god.

prove-me-wrong wrote:There were no computers hundreds of years ago that could so perfectly align hidden numerical patterns into the quran!!!!

No it could perfecly 'allign' human capability to do maths. Or do you think the pyramids were build by divine insipiration from Osiris and Horus?

prove-me-wrong wrote:How do you explain the miracle of number 19?!

What's the miracle?

Also: how many lost limbs has your god regrown, because that would be a miracle.

prove-me-wrong wrote:

ADParker wrote:

prove-me-wrong wrote:http://www.quranmiracles.com

nobody has ever been able to debunk the great miracles in the holy quran!

Or reliably verify that them either as far as I am aware. And that's the way they can be said to be of any value.

YOU LIE!

Every single miracle has been verified on that website! It does not only state the relevant ayah verse, but also an explanation of the science or divine numerical pattern that provides the context!!!!!

No prove-me-wrong, I wasn't lying. As far as I am aware no actual miracles have been properly verified. I may be mistaken, and there may be some real miracles in there that I am not yet aware of, and that we could discuss. But just accusing me of lying is hardly going to get us anywhere, now is it?

Sorry, but having read much of those a long time ago (you didn't bring in anything I haven't seen before) I was unimpressed by every claim of "a miracle!" that I read.

prove-me-wrong wrote:

prove-me-wrong wrote:I highly suggest you all look through that website. It is very enlightening.

I thought you were interested in debate. Tell you what; why don't you describe what you consider to be the best, most convincing/revealing one, and we can discuss it from there?

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/10/endless-miracles-in-the-basmalah/

How can you explain for example the 10 numerical patterns found in the basmallah (the arabic phrase for "In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful")? Do you really think it's just coincidence? What is the likelyhood of finding such a patterns in any manmade book? There were no computers hundreds of years ago that could so perfectly align hidden numerical patterns into the quran!!!!

How do you explain the miracle of number 19?!

Thank you for bringing in one example as requested (so few bother to do so.)

Sadly I see nothing to it. It is just another example like that of the numerous forms of "The Bible Code" and silly numerological nonsense. Games with numbers, nothing more.
And I don't see any miracles there at all. In what way is it miraculous that giving numbers to words (and word counts etc.) comes out as multiples of some number etc.?!

Every time I see this kind of thing I am immediately reminded of a case where someone looked for multiples of the number 7 in the first part of the Tanakh (Genesis), found a whole bunch and got all excited as in this case here. Another individual did the same thing with similar results. Both claimed it to be "a miracle" that the original (Hebrew) holy text contained such remarkable instances of the number 7 (considered a holy number by many.) It turned out however that the texts they used differed in many ways; dropped letters, slightly different wording etc. How could it be that if the thing is rewritten you still get so many instances of the number 7? How could it be anything else but that fact that the original text (what ever that might be) is not so miraculous in this? Because if those number repetitions were so "miraculous" any change to the text would surely obliterate them.
Likewise others used the same "code" method on known works of fiction (Moby Dick, The Lord of the Rings) etc. and achieved similar results. It turns out you can achieve this purported "miraculous" result all over the place. And that there is furthermore no need to presume that these claimed codes were intentionally inserted at all, as you implied with that thing about computers, but can just be naturally drawn out of regular old texts where the author had no intent to say anything but that which was written.

And as for "the miracle of number 19?"; how is that a miracle? Of what significance does that number (let alone multiplications of that number) possibly have to anything? And without that what point is there to it?!
It doesn't even convey anything. So what if words fall into a pattern like that, of what possible value and significance is that? Why is your chosen "miracle" so trite: "Oh look; the number 19 can be found in this text a bunch of times and ways!" Hardly water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead, or revealing hidden powerful truths now is it?

So that one fails as giving any real hint of anything remotely miraculous.
And if that is what you consider to be the best, most convincing/revealing one, as I requested of you, then your contentions are in trouble.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

prove-me-wrong wrote:

ADParker wrote:

prove-me-wrong wrote:I highly suggest you all look through that website. It is very enlightening.

I thought you were interested in debate. Tell you what; why don't you describe what you consider to be the best, most convincing/revealing one, and we can discuss it from there?

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/10/endless-miracles-in-the-basmalah/

Examples, not links please.

Actually I was more than happy with that. Better than I expected to be honest.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

prove-me-wrong wrote:How can you explain for example the 10 numerical patterns found in the basmallah (the arabic phrase for "In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful")?

People wrote these things based on numerical patterns to create the illusion that they were divinely inspired.

Actually I think you are giving away too much there. Why assume that those patterns were intentionally put in there in the first place? To do so rather presumes that there is any level of significance to them at all.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

prove-me-wrong wrote:Do you really think it's just coincidence?

No, intentional. Intentionally set up by humans to trick other humans.

I think "coincidence" is probably more likely myself. Or more aptly; simply a natural outcome of the nature of human language and mathematics.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

prove-me-wrong wrote:What is the likelyhood of finding such a patterns in any manmade book?

Very likely. The same patterns occur in Jewish, Christian, Hindu and other religious texts. Texts which all claim to be divine revelations from the only true god.

Indeed. And non-religious texts as well. As far as I can tell the only reason they are so often found in religious texts rather than secular ones is that there are those so hot to find something in their cherished texts that it is there that the bother to look.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

prove-me-wrong wrote:How do you explain the miracle of number 19?!

What's the miracle?

Also: how many lost limbs has your god regrown, because that would be a miracle.

Precisely! You ask for a miracle and they point out the number 19 cropping up a number of time when you manipulate a bit of text?!
Why would a god even bother to do something so pathetic?!

Maybe Allah thinks it is the 19th most powerful god?

Didn't the Stones figure out that it was just, "your 19th nervous breakdown?"

RS