2019-nCoV or COVID-19

Serious discussion of the novel Corona Virus outbreak.

Understanding the basis and treatment of disease.

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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#481  Postby felltoearth » Apr 10, 2020 12:36 am

The doubling rate has been known as 2-3 days for some time.
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#482  Postby Macdoc » Apr 10, 2020 12:46 am

:roll: two whole days eh


Apr 7, 2020,05:34pm EDT
The COVID-19 Coronavirus Disease May Be Twice As Contagious As We Thought

A single person with COVID-19 may be more likely to infect up to 5 or 6 other people, rather than 2 or 3, suggests a new study of Chinese data from the CDC. It’s not clear if this higher number applies only to the cases in China or if it will be similar in other countries.

If the higher number does remain true elsewhere, it means that more people in a population need to be immune from the disease—either from having already had it or from a vaccine—to stop it from circulating.

The new study, published in the Emerging Infectious Diseases journal, shifts the R0 for COVID-19 from about 2.2 to about 5.7. With the lower number, only 55% of a population needs to be immune from COVID-19 to stop its spread through herd immunity. Herd immunity refers to enough of a population being immune to a disease that the disease cannot travel through it.
But if more people get infected from a single person with COVID-19, then more people need to be protected from the disease to stop it from continuing to spread. With an R0 of 5.7, approximately 82% of the population needs to be immune to reach herd immunity and stop the disease from spreading easily through the population, the researchers concluded.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle ... 7954c029a6
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#483  Postby felltoearth » Apr 10, 2020 2:06 am

Sorry, where does that article contradict what either of us posted?
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#484  Postby Svartalf » Apr 10, 2020 9:08 am

There's one thing I wonder about. So they say that chloroquin and hydroxychloroquin seem to have antiviral properties... all right.

But I hear repeatedly that to combat coronavirus, the drug has to be combined with the antibiotic azithromycin. I just don't get why.
I mean, I've been hearing for years, maybe decades that antibiotics are useless against viral diseases... so why use that one to boost chloroquin's efficiency? I know that antibiotics are sometimes given to viral patients to prevent or combat bacterial surinfection, but I've not heard of this being the reason, especially since azithromycin is not often a first intent treatment.

anybody has data on the matter?
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#485  Postby Macdoc » Apr 10, 2020 10:30 am

Often what kills is not the virus but the bacterial pneumonia that arrives.

Bacterial Pneumonia Caused Most Deaths in 1918 Influenza Pandemic. ... The pneumonia was caused when bacteria that normally inhabit the nose and throat invaded the lungs along a pathway created when the virus destroyed the cells that line the bronchial tubes and lungs


Excellent read Image

sound familiar?
From Publishers Weekly
In 1918, a plague swept across the world virtually without warning, killing healthy young adults as well as vulnerable infants and the elderly. Hospitals and morgues were quickly overwhelmed; in Philadelphia, 4,597 people died in one week alone and bodies piled up on the streets to be carted off to mass graves. But this was not the dreaded Black Death-it was "only influenza." In this sweeping history, Barry (Rising Tide) explores how the deadly confluence of biology (a swiftly mutating flu virus that can pass between animals and humans) and politics (President Wilson's all-out war effort in WWI) created conditions in which the virus thrived, killing more than 50 million worldwide and perhaps as many as 100 million in just a year. Overcrowded military camps and wide-ranging troop deployments allowed the highly contagious flu to spread quickly; transport ships became "floating caskets." Yet the U.S. government refused to shift priorities away from the war and, in effect, ignored the crisis. Shortages of doctors and nurses hurt military and civilian populations alike, and the ineptitude of public health officials exacerbated the death toll. In Philadelphia, the hardest-hit municipality in the U.S., "the entire city government had done nothing" to either contain the disease or assist afflicted families. Instead, official lies and misinformation, Barry argues, created a climate of "fear... [that] threatened to break the society apart." Barry captures the sense of panic and despair that overwhelmed stricken communities and hits hard at those who failed to use their power to protect the public good. He also describes the work of the dedicated researchers who rushed to find the cause of the disease and create vaccines. Flu shots are widely available today because of their heroic efforts, yet we remain vulnerable to a virus that can mutate to a deadly strain without warning. Society's ability to survive another devastating flu pandemic, Barry argues, is as much a political question as a medical one.


It's a horrific read. At least we have anti-biotics ....the politics tho ?? :coffee:
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#486  Postby Svartalf » Apr 10, 2020 10:34 am

So it IS to prevent surinfection, alright, thank you.
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#487  Postby NineBerry » Apr 10, 2020 10:46 am

Svartalf wrote:There's one thing I wonder about. So they say that chloroquin and hydroxychloroquin seem to have antiviral properties... all right.

But I hear repeatedly that to combat coronavirus, the drug has to be combined with the antibiotic azithromycin. I just don't get why.
I mean, I've been hearing for years, maybe decades that antibiotics are useless against viral diseases... so why use that one to boost chloroquin's efficiency? I know that antibiotics are sometimes given to viral patients to prevent or combat bacterial surinfection, but I've not heard of this being the reason, especially since azithromycin is not often a first intent treatment.

anybody has data on the matter?


In the early study that this idea comes from, the antibiotic was given purely to prevent surinfections. They then found that those patients had a higher reduction of virus loads than the patients who didn't get it. That's where this whole idea comes from. A study with low numbers, only looking for virus load and not outcome and with lots of other problems.



It is interesting to note that 6 patients were prescribed azithromycin “to prevent bacterial super-infection” and the investigators found that viral eradication was numerically superior in this subgroup (6 of 6, 100%) compared with those who received hydroxychloroquine alone (8 of 14, 57%). The authors concluded that azithromycin “reinforced” the SARS-CoV-2 viral load achieved by hydroxychloroquine. Although these data are intriguing, certain limitations to this data set must be acknowledged. First, although viral eradication is an important endpoint, the authors did not report clinical outcomes in these patients. Second, the cohort initially contained 26 hydroxychloroquine patients, but 6 of them were removed from the analysis due to early cessation of hydroxychloroquine therapy including 3 PCR-positive patients who were transferred to the intensive care unit (ICU), 1 PCR-negative patient who passed away, and 1 PCR-positive patient who discontinued hydroxychloroquine due to nausea. Finally, the hydroxychloroquine monotherapy arm included patients with significantly higher viral loads, represented by lower cycle threshold (CT) values than those who received combination therapy. If the hydroxychloroquine monotherapy patients with CT values <23 are separated from those with CT values ≥23, there is a notable discordance in viral eradication rates (1 of 5, 20% vs 7 of 9, 78%), with this latter number approaching the 6 of 6 demonstrated with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin combination therapy in which all patients had CT values ≥23. Given this finding, the small numbers in this study, the lack of clinical outcomes presented, the potential for additive toxicity with hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin, and the desperate need to practice good antimicrobial stewardship during the COVID-19 pandemic, we would caution clinicians against using these data to support combination therapy.



https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/7 ... 05/5811022
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#488  Postby Svartalf » Apr 10, 2020 11:15 am

great document. wonder why I could not find the like in French. Thank you.
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#489  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 10, 2020 3:17 pm

I was ranting on elsewhere online about COVID-19 being SARS2 and air-travel being the difference between SARS1 and 2 when a very knowledge lady called Beth (Oxford uni graduate back in the day) let me know that there is one CRUCIAL difference between COVID-19 and SARS, which I verified on the website linked below.

SARS patients became very ill with fever, headaches, muscle pain, diarrhoea etc for 5 or so days BEFORE they started shedding millions of virus particles via the dry cough, meaning they could be identified and isolated BEFORE they might go spluttering off to the airport, round town, to the cinema infecting everybody in the area etc. This to my mind explains the majority of why COVID-19 is so much more pernicious than SARS. I also read a paper detailing that the COVID-19 binding protein has a higher affinity for the binding protein on the host cell than SARS.

Needless to say I deleted what misinformation I could which I'd propagated online RE the air-travel boom being the main culprit, as much as I'd have "liked" that to be the case. Sorry. Also Thommo, I read that the genome of the COVID-19 virus is (only) 79% identical to SARS, in line with what you suggested earlier in the thread.

A very different monster, then. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/SARS/
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#490  Postby felltoearth » Apr 10, 2020 3:21 pm

Very good.
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#491  Postby Macdoc » Apr 10, 2020 4:45 pm

Ouch

- Canada's 12 deaths per million

https://business.financialpost.com/dian ... oronavirus


TRACKING COVID-19 IN THE U.S.
Positive cases: 469,285 (1,429.7 per 1 mil people)
Deaths: 16,772 (51.1 per 1 mil people)

https://www.reuters.com

Nightmare for our southern neighbour. :ill:
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#492  Postby Cito di Pense » Apr 10, 2020 6:49 pm

Duc Vuong is a bariatric surgeon with a practice somewhere in or around NYC. His interest in COVID-19 stems from the fact that his typical patient is in a high-risk group. He has a folksy, even edgy, approach, but otherwise professional, and delivers great videos, particularly about the physiology of this disease (the second video, below, looks at cytokine storm, for those who are interested, but he doesn't have any info as to who's at risk; he says it's a phenotype, at the cellular (?) or tissue (?) level). Good stuff:



Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#493  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 10, 2020 7:34 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
Needless to say I deleted what misinformation I could which I'd propagated online RE the air-travel boom being the main culprit, as much as I'd have "liked" that to be the case.


That, if you don't mind me saying, is actually insightful, self-aware, and the kind of thinking that a shit tonne more people need to grasp; sorting acceptable facts according to previously held treasured ideas is self-limiting.

Air travel is not the culprit; but it is aiding the spread. Viruses benefit from our behaviors - we're their vectors and they need us like flowering plants need bees. In the absence of air travel, cars and mass transit would be nearly as useful. But then so were horses with the Mongols and the spread of the Black Death. Agriculture too; more people means more vectors.

But we're not going to abandon these things just because viruses hop on for the ride, and it's all too easy to forget the numerous benefits that make abandoning even air travel an empty proposition. There's no going backwards - we need to find ways to overcome the problems while retaining the benefits. Combustion engines are not good for the environment, so we need to find a way to move people around without emitting atmosphere altering chemicals. Global freedom of movement means diseases can jump great distances and create new infection sites, so we need to find a way to test travelers' wellness, or to create remedies faster. We don't seem to be great as a species finding the impetus and finances to do this kind of thing in advance, but when we are forced to recognize the problems, we are rather good at finding solutions. In many ways, Covid-19 may provide a silver lining in terms of a wake-up call - we all know what impact this has had, and frankly, it's relatively minor comparative to what could be - now there should be the will at all levels to invest and make sacrifices to ensure that we're prepared should a worse transmissible disease come along.
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#494  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 10, 2020 7:47 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:
Needless to say I deleted what misinformation I could which I'd propagated online RE the air-travel boom being the main culprit, as much as I'd have "liked" that to be the case.


That, if you don't mind me saying, is actually insightful, self-aware, and the kind of thinking that a shit tonne more people need to grasp; sorting acceptable facts according to previously held treasured ideas is self-limiting.


Thank you Spearthrower. I agree I did the right thing in deleting my errors where I could. I also have also subsequently posted a couple of retractions and explanations in pertinent locations. I am quite embarrassed about my error all over the net on this, but, well we all make mistakes, so chin up KIR.

A quote from the John Boorman film Excalibur which I actually had an avatar of here from the theatrical poster, for a time. Roughly:

Arthur: What is the highest of virtues Merlin?
Merlin: Hmmmm, well, what a question...truth! yes, that's it, truth! You should know that!

RE the air-travel, although it's kinda off topic, I feel we as a society need make some significant sacrifices to combat environmental destruction, and cutting down an biannual international tourism etc seems a fair place to roast a goat or two in the name of Good.
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#495  Postby OlivierK » Apr 10, 2020 8:20 pm

What I'd like to see go first is the bulk of international business travel, a lot (not all, by any means, but a lot) could be just as easily done via videolink. There are lot of people who travel for business who hate doing so, and perhaps the lessons we've collectively learned here might persist (although it will be interesting to see how much the forced nature of doing things remotely now creates an antipathy to keeping up those methods in the future).
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#496  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 10, 2020 8:30 pm

I think the massive increase in zoom call usage (and other videoconferencing software too no doubt) and familiarity amongst the business types, due to C-19 lockdown, might well (fingers crossed) see your hopes realised, at least to a degree, OlivierK. I mean, it's gotta be cheaper than flying, for starters, not to mention businesses being able to boast about it's use in order to earn "the Green dollar."



ETA - perhaps shoulda posted a clip of the rebels video conferencing :lol:
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#497  Postby chango369 » Apr 10, 2020 10:49 pm

“Government is the Entertainment division of the military-industrial complex.”

Frank Zappa
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#498  Postby NineBerry » Apr 10, 2020 10:58 pm

Not really useful. Low number of samples and no control group
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#499  Postby Macdoc » Apr 11, 2020 1:08 pm

Of course it''s useful ....geeez NB ....stop dissing professionals that are working hard to provide solutions. :nono:

If you were in that group on a ventilator you'd be fucking grateful for the effort.

- More than two-thirds of severely ill COVID-19 patients saw their condition improve after treatment with remdesivir, an experimental drug being developed by Gilead Sciences Inc. (GILD.O), according to new data based on patient observation.

The analysis, published on Friday by the New England Journal of Medicine, does not detail what other treatments the 61 hospitalized patients were given and data on eight of them were not included — in one case because of a dosing error.

The paper’s author called the findings “hopeful,” but cautioned that it is difficult to interpret the results since they do not include comparison to a control group, as would be the case in a randomized clinical trial. In addition, the patient numbers were small, the details being disclosed are limited, and the follow-up time was relatively short.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKCN21S24G
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Re: 2019-nCoV or COVID-19

#500  Postby NineBerry » Apr 11, 2020 1:57 pm

It's no useful information for the public because it's not conclusive. Let the real studies finish to see which are the best treatments for which situations.
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