Bernie Sanders 2016?

Senator To Announce Bid For Democratic Nomination

For discussion of politics, and what's going on in the world today.

Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1721  Postby Nicko » Mar 19, 2016 1:46 pm

laklak wrote:Trump promises to lower tax rates, change accounting procedures, eliminate inheritance taxes, lower or even eliminate capital gains, reduce regulation, and in general foster a more business friendly environment. What's not to like, from their perspective?


They might try thinking beyond immediate short-term gain.

Robert Reich wrote:You are the captains of American industry, the titans of Wall Street, and the billionaires who for decades have been the backbone of the Republican Party.

You’ve invested your millions in the GOP in order to get lower taxes, wider tax loopholes, bigger subsidies, more generous bailouts, less regulation, lengthier patents and copyrights and stronger market power allowing you to raise prices, weaker unions and bigger trade deals allowing you outsource abroad to reduce wages, easier bankruptcy for you but harder bankruptcy for homeowners and student debtors, and judges who will let you to engage in insider trading and who won’t prosecute you for white-collar crimes.

All of which have made you enormously wealthy. Congratulations.

But I have some disturbing news for you. You’re paying a big price – and about to pay far more.

more ...


Unless fixed, the economic strategies the US political mainstream has championed for the last few decades will crash the entire system in almost exactly the same way that the business strategies of the financial sector caused companies to crash while the CEOs met every target given to them, qualifying for astronomical bonuses even while the companies they ran failed.

There's such a thing as systemic risk.
"Democracy is asset insurance for the rich. Stop skimping on the payments."

-- Mark Blyth
User avatar
Nicko
 
Name: Nick Williams
Posts: 8643
Age: 47
Male

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1722  Postby laklak » Mar 19, 2016 1:58 pm

Absolutely, Nicko, but there is also a case to be made against over-regulation and over-taxation, particularly in the small business sector. These people aren't Big Business, even if they own several hundred rental properties, they're small potatoes. There must be a happy medium, a position at which consumer rights are protected, but business owners can still turn a reasonable profit. Most of the disagreement, IMO, centers around what is "reasonable".

Over the past 8 years it has become increasingly difficult for small business owners to stay in business, the level of frankly onerous regulation has increased dramatically. Coupled with the economic turndown it's been the death knell of many small operators.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
laklak
RS Donator
 
Name: Florida Man
Posts: 20878
Age: 70
Male

Country: The Great Satan
Swaziland (sz)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1723  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 19, 2016 6:16 pm

I can't imagine Trump gives a rats ass about small business.
The problem with fantasies is you can't really insist that everyone else believes in yours, the other problem with fantasies is that most believers of fantasies eventually get around to doing exactly that.
User avatar
Onyx8
Moderator
 
Posts: 17520
Age: 67
Male

Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1724  Postby laklak » Mar 19, 2016 7:13 pm

Probably not, but his proposed policies are business friendly in general, whereas Bernie's and Hillary's are distinctly anti, particularly their increases in long term capital gains. If you want to shut down the housing sector in a heartbeat just treat long term CG as ordinary income.

It would be damn hard for him to be worse than Obama.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
laklak
RS Donator
 
Name: Florida Man
Posts: 20878
Age: 70
Male

Country: The Great Satan
Swaziland (sz)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1725  Postby Thommo » Mar 19, 2016 8:23 pm

laklak wrote:Over the past 8 years it has become increasingly difficult for small business owners to stay in business, the level of frankly onerous regulation has increased dramatically.


Is this backed up by a significant spike in the proportion of small businesses going under, or a significant decrease in the number of people employed by small business, or significant decrease in the number of new small businesses being established?
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 27477

Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1726  Postby laklak » Mar 19, 2016 8:38 pm

Most of the recent articles I can find focus on the period up to about 2011. Many small businesses are single proprietor, or partnerships, and hence don't have readily available articles of incorporation, or in many jurisdictions, even business licenses. Tax records are, of course, confidential, so you can't analyze those stats. It's also almost impossible to tease out the reasons for failure, particularly in light of the Great Recession, which kicked the shit out of business both large and small.

The best way to gauge the attitudes of small businessmen it to talk to them, read the blogs. Problem with that approach is you're going to get a one-sided view of the issue. Most organizations talking about the issue seem to have an ax to grind, from one side or the other.

I can only speak with authority about my own experiences, and the experiences of other small business people I know. That is, of course, anecdotal.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
laklak
RS Donator
 
Name: Florida Man
Posts: 20878
Age: 70
Male

Country: The Great Satan
Swaziland (sz)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1727  Postby Thommo » Mar 19, 2016 8:56 pm

I'm sceptical. There's no realistic way you're going to talk to the tens of millions of people across fifty states in a hundred different business sectors with a variety of political axes to grind, so I think we can chuck anecdotes out the window.

If there's really a systemic problem, we would expect it to show up in the stats. And there are plenty of stats regarding small businesses. After all, regulation requires book keeping and so forth. And if there's just as many people making money, staying in business and getting employed, what exactly is the harm being caused by the regulation?

Anyway, while I'm being disagreeable (sorry about that), I'm going to disagree with that Robert Reich article as well. Talk about shoveling the bullshit. Who does he think he's fooling when he writes stuff like:
Republican politicians in particular have descended into the muck of bigotry, hatefulness, and lies. They’re splitting America by race, ethnicity, and religion. The moral authority America once had in the world as a beacon of democracy and common sense is in jeopardy. And that’s not good for you, or your businesses.


America's got a history of being a beacon of moral authority on race, ethnicity and religion about as much as South Africa does. It's hardly been a beacon with a history of widespread slavery, prejudice against immigrants (no blacks, no dogs, no Irish), segregation, laws against mixed race marriage (as recently as the late 60s I believe) and goodness knows what else. If you look at stuff like "would you vote for a black candidate" it's clear that things are pretty much better than they've ever been.
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 27477

Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1728  Postby laklak » Mar 19, 2016 9:06 pm

The problem is, I think, that there is no national source for the raw data. It's like trying to get firm stats on gun crime, for example. No one tracks why a small business goes under - they could be retiring, found a better job, any reason at all. We don't even know how many small businesses there are out there. Each state has it's own set of regulations, and within each state each county, sometimes each municipality.

I tried to get some information on a marine diesel mechanic who fucked me out of some money. He did business out of Pinellas county, and they don't require a business license. He wasn't incorporated, so there was no information on a state level. A clusterfuck, basically. Caveat emptor. That's probably an argument for MORE regulation, though.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
laklak
RS Donator
 
Name: Florida Man
Posts: 20878
Age: 70
Male

Country: The Great Satan
Swaziland (sz)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1729  Postby proudfootz » Mar 19, 2016 9:10 pm

People sometimes forget that regulations are sometimes there for a reason - they don't just fall from the sky. They generally exist because of some recurring problem.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
User avatar
proudfootz
 
Posts: 11041

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1730  Postby Thommo » Mar 19, 2016 9:19 pm

laklak wrote:The problem is, I think, that there is no national source for the raw data. It's like trying to get firm stats on gun crime, for example. No one tracks why a small business goes under - they could be retiring, found a better job, any reason at all. We don't even know how many small businesses there are out there. Each state has it's own set of regulations, and within each state each county, sometimes each municipality.

I tried to get some information on a marine diesel mechanic who fucked me out of some money. He did business out of Pinellas county, and they don't require a business license. He wasn't incorporated, so there was no information on a state level. A clusterfuck, basically. Caveat emptor. That's probably an argument for MORE regulation, though.


Well, in a broad sense I agree with you. There's good regulation (not allowed to have asbestos in your walls, mandatory basic working conditions for employees etc.) and there's bad regulation. You can have too much regulation and you can have too little.

I just don't see how one extracts a principle or overview if there's no widespread data to look at or objective analysis one can make. We end up in a sort of no man's land of "we should have the right amount of regulation, but we don't know how much regulation there is, we don't know what the right amount is, and we probably wouldn't 100% agree on that right amount anyway".

If there's no systemic trend to observe, then systemic announcements seem premature and I'll always be sceptical and I think non sceptical approaches are open to criticism. At that point I think you're forced into dealing with specific policies and specific implications, e.g. what's the right amount of maternity/paternity leave? What should the division of that leave be between genders? Should it be transferable? Should small businesses have partial exemptions? And so on.
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 27477

Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1731  Postby laklak » Mar 19, 2016 9:28 pm

proudfootz wrote:People sometimes forget that regulations are sometimes there for a reason - they don't just fall from the sky. They generally exist because of some recurring problem.


True, and rightly so. Problem is, if you pay people to make rules that's exactly what they do. There doesn't seem to be any demarcation between the regulations for Big and small business. When I was running my catering company and wanted to branch out into wholesale foods, I found I'd be subject to almost exactly the same regulatory environment as Kraft Foods. Simply wasn't doable without a half million buck investment, which was a bit out of my league. Or out of my bank's league, though I think they probably got a good laugh out of it. That ties in with Thommo's comment.

Yes, I believe small businesses should be held to a different standard. They already do that with some regulations, health care insurance requirements, for example. But requiring a small bacon and sausage maker to maintain a separate office (at their expense) for USDA inspectors to use seems like overkill. There were a raft of other regulations, all of which made perfect sense when dealing with a mega-factory producing millions of units, but little or no sense for a small, local producer.

EDIT We're all about local production of food, organics, blah de blah, but the rules and regulations make it very difficult for a small scale producer to break into the marketplace. Part of this is State level stuff, North Carolina, for example would have been much easier to open up in, but Florida has abrogated their authority to the USDA, meaning the Feds run the show. OF course, if I opened in North Carolina I could never ship across state lines, otherwise the Feds would be in it anyway.
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - Mark Twain
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! - Chicken Little
I never go without my dinner. No one ever does, except vegetarians and people like that - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
laklak
RS Donator
 
Name: Florida Man
Posts: 20878
Age: 70
Male

Country: The Great Satan
Swaziland (sz)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1732  Postby willhud9 » Mar 19, 2016 9:37 pm

On that I definitely agree. I know the owner of a small mom and pop craft store and he has two employees whom he loves dearly. He pays these two 8.25 USD an hour and both are full time.

It's just the three of them and they make decent business selling craft supplies, especially in an area dominated by AC Moores, Michael's Craft Stores, Walmarts, and Targets, and Hobby Lobby's. He has told me if he was required by law to raise his minimum wage to $15 his costs of his goods would have to go above his competitors pricing and that could hurt his business, OR he would have to let off one his workers/reduce one of them to part time.

He's been training those two to assume responsibilities of the shop. As I said he loves those guys and they are great guys. But little things that are great for bringing in the tyrannical big corporations being equally applied to all small businesses can be detrimental to people's livlihood.
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
 
Name: William
Posts: 19379
Age: 32
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1733  Postby proudfootz » Mar 19, 2016 9:45 pm

Yes, small businesses can have a harder time conforming to regulations because they are time consuming, can be expensive, etc: things that larger businesses can handle more easily (hire someone to take the time to fill out paperwork, etc).
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
User avatar
proudfootz
 
Posts: 11041

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1734  Postby Macdoc » Mar 20, 2016 3:19 am

The one reason his competitors are cheaper is they also pay minimum wage. There is a point that a business is not viable regardless of wage costs.
You cannot have wage earners subsidizing landlords of the business either which low wages tend to do.
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 17714
Age: 76
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1735  Postby willhud9 » Mar 20, 2016 4:01 am

Macdoc wrote:The one reason his competitors are cheaper is they also pay minimum wage. There is a point that a business is not viable regardless of wage costs.
You cannot have wage earners subsidizing landlords of the business either which low wages tend to do.


False: right now his prices are cheaper than Wal-mart and Target because he can afford to sell his product for cheaper. He gets the business to do so. I can buy yarn at his shop for 25 cents less than at Wal-mart and he has sales where that goes down even further frequently.

He cannot keep his prices that low and pay two employees if he is forced to give them a $10 minimum wage or a $15 min wage.

As of right now he is hoping to train and equip both of them to become partners in the business. Both of them have college education, yet they choose to work for this small business in the hopes they can successfully rise in it and launch it. It is really cool and one of the reasons why I do shop there.

But he constantly is talking about some regulation or another that either the local county passes or the state passes or the feds pass that hinders him but merely inconveniences the bigger corporations.

If the min wage was raised and all businesses were required to do so, big businesses can already afford to incorporate that change in their business without affecting their prices. Smaller businesses could not. Regulation needs to be apportioned appropriately.
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
 
Name: William
Posts: 19379
Age: 32
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1736  Postby Macdoc » Mar 20, 2016 5:13 am

You mean his business is not viable except by not paying his employees a living wage.....that's a crock...he is being subsidized by the local welfare system just as Walmart is.

Your's is just the kind of bullshit argument the right wing ding screw the employees like to haul out. Y'know Australia is an expenisive place to live, has a minimum wage of $17 an hour and on top of that every employee gets substantial benefits as well as superannuation that gives them a substantial sum over their working life ( on average maybe $300k over a 40 year work period ) and it moves from employer to employer.

GF is a nurse ...40 year working period and will come out with 5-600,000 in superannuation in 3-4 years.

Progressive nations take care of their citizens as a group....not to the benefit of the 1%ers.
Isn't it odd that Walmart fights unions tooth and nail everywhere ......except China.

Even Henry fucking Ford understood he had to play his employees enough wages for them to be able to afford his products.

If his employees forgive a living wage for a future share in the business....good on them...it's hardly a paradyme tho.
Travel photos > https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries
EO Wilson in On Human Nature wrote:
We are not compelled to believe in biological uniformity in order to affirm human freedom and dignity.
User avatar
Macdoc
 
Posts: 17714
Age: 76
Male

Country: Canada/Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1737  Postby Teague » Mar 21, 2016 12:47 pm

Macdoc wrote:You mean his business is not viable except by not paying his employees a living wage.....that's a crock...he is being subsidized by the local welfare system just as Walmart is.

Your's is just the kind of bullshit argument the right wing ding screw the employees like to haul out. Y'know Australia is an expenisive place to live, has a minimum wage of $17 an hour and on top of that every employee gets substantial benefits as well as superannuation that gives them a substantial sum over their working life ( on average maybe $300k over a 40 year work period ) and it moves from employer to employer.

GF is a nurse ...40 year working period and will come out with 5-600,000 in superannuation in 3-4 years.

Progressive nations take care of their citizens as a group....not to the benefit of the 1%ers.
Isn't it odd that Walmart fights unions tooth and nail everywhere ......except China.

Even Henry fucking Ford understood he had to play his employees enough wages for them to be able to afford his products.

If his employees forgive a living wage for a future share in the business....good on them...it's hardly a paradyme tho.


And under a Sanders administration you'll see Walmart suddenly paying a lot more and hiking their prices up. Some people may lose their businesses - their employees will have to find a new job paying twice the wage. I wonder what Will's friend pays himself.
User avatar
Teague
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 10072

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1738  Postby MarkP80 » Mar 21, 2016 2:15 pm

How will he make them partners, if he can't even afford to pay them a living wage?
By making them partners, wouldn't they get an even bigger share of the profits?
Am I missing something here?

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
MarkP80
 
Name: Mark Pereira
Posts: 548
Age: 43
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1739  Postby Teague » Mar 22, 2016 12:08 pm

The next big day in the presidential nominating contest is Tuesday when voters in Arizona, Utah and Idaho head to the polls.

But the votes are already in for another overlooked primary — Democrats Abroad. Between March 1 and March 8, Democrats living across the globe cast their votes for who they want to see as their party's nominee. The votes have now been tallied, and Bernie Sanders won by a wide margin, according to results released Monday.

Sanders beat Clinton 69 to 31 percent in a year of record turnout for American Democratic voters living overseas. More than 34,000 people participated, a 50 percent jump from 2008. Sanders picked up 9 pledged delegates to Clinton's 4.

But who are Democrats Abroad? Where did the votes come from?

http://www.npr.org/2016/03/21/471308455 ... o-are-they
User avatar
Teague
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 10072

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Bernie Sanders 2016?

#1740  Postby Teague » Mar 22, 2016 12:11 pm


On Monday, Bernie Sanders did something his campaign has been toying with for months: He gave a speech laying out his vision for Middle East peace. With the other four remaining major party candidates traveling to Washington, DC, to speak at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee conference, Sanders opted to stay in Utah, where he is banking on a strong showing in Tuesday's Democratic caucus. Prior to addressing a packed Salt Lake City gymnasium, he spoke to a smaller crowd, offering the speech his people say he would have delivered at AIPAC.

Consistent with his ongoing critique of economic inequality, Sanders, who is Jewish and spent time at a kibbutz after college, offered a plea for a more humane handling of the Israel–Palestine conflict. "To be successful, we have to be a friend not only to Israel, but to the Palestinian people, where in Gaza, they suffer from an unemployment rate of 44 percent—the highest in the world—and a poverty rate nearly equal to that," Sanders said, according to a prepared text of his remarks.

Israel, he argued, is compounding the suffering with its own aggressive policies. Sanders called on Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu to pull back settlements in the West Bank and turn over hundreds of millions of shekels in tax revenue to Palestinians. Peace, he also said, "will mean a sustainable and equitable distribution of precious water resources so that Israel and Palestine can both thrive as neighbors…Right now, Israel controls 80 percent of the water reserves in the West Bank. Inadequate water supply has contributed to the degradation and desertification of Palestinian land. A lasting a peace will have to recognize Palestinians are entitled to control their own lives, and there is nothing human life needs more than water."

As he moved on to a rehashing of his positions on ISIS and the Iran nuclear deal, Sanders hit on familiar themes, framing the failure of Middle Eastern nations to stop ISIS, in part, as a failure of wealthy elites. If Qatar could spend $200 billion on World Cup soccer stadiums, he said, it could surely spend as much fighting terrorists. Singling out Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, both of which have benefited from America's defense budget, Sanders added that, "wealthy and powerful nations in the region can no longer expect the United States to do their work for them."

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2016/03 ... peech-utah
User avatar
Teague
THREAD STARTER
 
Posts: 10072

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to News, Politics & Current Affairs

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 5 guests