Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1181  Postby virphen » Oct 25, 2010 7:00 am

Mononoke wrote:Best comment ever.

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | October 25, 2010 2:29 AM

Everyone ragging on Timonen for his lack of web design ability are forgetting that it takes time and energy to cheat an organization out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. He didn't also have time for web design.

LOL



http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010 ... nt-2878144

I hope Ichthyic doesn't mind me posting this here :angel:


He shouldn't he was quoting an earlier comment by ChrisZ and merely added the "LOL" :P
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1182  Postby Mononoke » Oct 25, 2010 7:02 am

virphen wrote:
Mononoke wrote:Best comment ever.

Posted by: Ichthyic Author Profile Page | October 25, 2010 2:29 AM

Everyone ragging on Timonen for his lack of web design ability are forgetting that it takes time and energy to cheat an organization out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. He didn't also have time for web design.

LOL



http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010 ... nt-2878144

I hope Ichthyic doesn't mind me posting this here :angel:


He shouldn't he was quoting an earlier comment by ChrisZ and merely added the "LOL" :P

:oops:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1183  Postby mcgruff » Oct 25, 2010 7:02 am

BrandySpears wrote:
riddlemethis wrote:
virphen wrote:I really think all this stuff about his relationship is really, really lame. And cruel. And very superficial.


Yep, here, definitely, but I expect that mentioned in the complaint it is germaine to the action. . .we just don't know why?


Maybe is was relevant to explain the accusations of payments to her teenage children?


The lawyers will spin the facts just as much as they can get away with. The narrative they seem to be trying to create is a young man, a little bit out of his depth at work and also in his personal life, trying to maintain a relationship with an older woman who already has several children. They may try to hint that insecurity drove him to shower his girlfriend and her children with gifts in order to prove his worth, or they may try to paint her as the experienced older woman, a Lady Macbeth leading her partner astray.

They're just messin' with your head.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1184  Postby Mantisdreamz » Oct 25, 2010 7:06 am

:mad:

I agree... I don't see why there should be any mention of the age of his girlfriend. And, I don't understand why there is a picture of them posted on the blog, and also brought into this discussion. Seems pretty unnecessary.


And, I also agree, that nothing can really be truly said until after the court case.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1185  Postby Aca » Oct 25, 2010 7:15 am

26 pages since last night :eek:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1186  Postby Festeringbob » Oct 25, 2010 7:19 am

Mantisdreamz wrote::mad:

I agree... I don't see why there should be any mention of the age of his girlfriend. And, I don't understand why there is a picture of them posted on the blog, and also brought into this discussion. Seems pretty unnecessary.


And, I also agree, that nothing can really be truly said until after the court case.


she could be complicit in the alleged crimes

edit- also i'm guessing Monkeyhole is one of this ladies teenage children :think:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1187  Postby hotshoe » Oct 25, 2010 7:24 am

Festeringbob wrote:
Mantisdreamz wrote::mad:

I agree... I don't see why there should be any mention of the age of his girlfriend. And, I don't understand why there is a picture of them posted on the blog, and also brought into this discussion. Seems pretty unnecessary.


And, I also agree, that nothing can really be truly said until after the court case.


she could be complicit in the alleged crimes

edit- also i'm guessing Monkeyhole is one of this ladies teenage children :think:

Maureens's listed as a defendant on at least one of the points - so Dawkins' lawyers certainly think she is complicit in at least some of the crimes.

Good guess about Monkeyhole - one of the teenagers would sound like that. I wonder if we'll ever know for sure.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1188  Postby Mononoke » Oct 25, 2010 7:25 am

Festeringbob wrote:
edit- also i'm guessing Monkeyhole is one of this ladies teenage children :think:


:rofl:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1189  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Oct 25, 2010 7:26 am

I second that.
what a terrible image
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1190  Postby riddlemethis » Oct 25, 2010 7:41 am

mcgruff wrote:
BrandySpears wrote:
riddlemethis wrote:

Yep, here, definitely, but I expect that mentioned in the complaint it is germaine to the action. . .we just don't know why?


Maybe is was relevant to explain the accusations of payments to her teenage children?


The lawyers will spin the facts just as much as they can get away with. The narrative they seem to be trying to create is a young man, a little bit out of his depth at work and also in his personal life, trying to maintain a relationship with an older woman who already has several children. They may try to hint that insecurity drove him to shower his girlfriend and her children with gifts in order to prove his worth, or they may try to paint her as the experienced older woman, a Lady Macbeth leading her partner astray.

They're just messin' with your head.


Why would the plaintiff's lawyers want to do that; mitigate the responsibility of the number one defendant? There's nothing in that for them & as he's the one with the established relationship (& supposed contract) with them, not her. At a guess, I wonder if it isn't to do with her family having been paid funds & making clear that the connection between Josh & this family is as a group of adults, that does not include children - perhaps to circumvent the very defence suggested above? Something like that seems more plausible than any effort to soften JT's responsibility. I reckon lawyers include certain types of information for a reason, especially if it could otherwise appear to be discriminatory (or just plain irrelevant). Expect it will become more clear during the hearing.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1191  Postby Aca » Oct 25, 2010 7:42 am

I dont know if this was posted already, but Independent has an article about it

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 15632.html

An ungodly row: Dawkins sues his disciple

Evolutionist's charity accuses protégé of stealing hundreds of thousands of pounds
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1192  Postby atrasicarius » Oct 25, 2010 7:43 am

BrandySpears wrote:
atrasicarius wrote:
Seraph wrote:Looking at the document filed by the lawyer acting on behalf of the plaintiffs, a couple of points make me fear that RDFSR and Dawkins will not find this court case as easy to win as it should be. The first two items read "Breach of oral contract" and "Breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing".

The old saying that a verbal contract is not worth the paper it is written on is an exaggeration, but there is a kernel of truth in it.


Even if he cant prove a breach of contract, the fraud and embezzlement should be pretty easy to prove, and those are the big ones.


How are you going to prove fraud or embezzlement when you don't have a contract to see what the guidelines were in the contract for disbursement of funds?


If the site said "All profits to the RDF," and the profits were going into someone's pocket instead, that seems pretty clear cut to me.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1193  Postby I'm With Stupid » Oct 25, 2010 7:49 am

atrasicarius wrote:
BrandySpears wrote:
atrasicarius wrote:

Even if he cant prove a breach of contract, the fraud and embezzlement should be pretty easy to prove, and those are the big ones.


How are you going to prove fraud or embezzlement when you don't have a contract to see what the guidelines were in the contract for disbursement of funds?


If the site said "All profits to the RDF," and the profits were going into someone's pocket instead, that seems pretty clear cut to me.

Depends whether it was profits or "costs/fees" going in his pocket (allegedly).
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1194  Postby twistor59 » Oct 25, 2010 7:51 am

Aca wrote:I dont know if this was posted already, but Independent has an article about it

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 15632.html

An ungodly row: Dawkins sues his disciple

Evolutionist's charity accuses protégé of stealing hundreds of thousands of pounds



One of the commenters on that article came up with the gem:

If he had had the sense to employ somebody which Christian or Muslim values - or even somebody who had some sense of spirituality - this would have been much less likely to have happened. An atheist who believes that he has to grab everything he can in this life because when he's dead that's the end of it isn't really the best person to trust with large sums of money.


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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1195  Postby Mantisdreamz » Oct 25, 2010 7:53 am

Festeringbob wrote:
Mantisdreamz wrote::mad:

I agree... I don't see why there should be any mention of the age of his girlfriend. And, I don't understand why there is a picture of them posted on the blog, and also brought into this discussion. Seems pretty unnecessary.


And, I also agree, that nothing can really be truly said until after the court case.


she could be complicit in the alleged crimes

edit- also i'm guessing Monkeyhole is one of this ladies teenage children :think:


:?

She probably is... but, why the picture of her & him at the poolside?! There's no reason for it!
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1196  Postby rEvolutionist » Oct 25, 2010 7:56 am

twistor59 wrote:
One of the commenters on that article came up with the gem:

If he had had the sense to employ somebody which Christian or Muslim values - or even somebody who had some sense of spirituality - this would have been much less likely to have happened. An atheist who believes that he has to grab everything he can in this life because when he's dead that's the end of it isn't really the best person to trust with large sums of money.


:roll:


Oh FFS. And now it starts in earnest....
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1197  Postby Simon_Gardner » Oct 25, 2010 7:57 am

Aca wrote:I dont know if this was posted already, but Independent has an article about it

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 15632.html

An ungodly row: Dawkins sues his disciple

Evolutionist's charity accuses protégé of stealing hundreds of thousands of pounds

It was.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1198  Postby rEvolutionist » Oct 25, 2010 7:57 am

Mantisdreamz wrote:
Festeringbob wrote:
Mantisdreamz wrote::mad:

I agree... I don't see why there should be any mention of the age of his girlfriend. And, I don't understand why there is a picture of them posted on the blog, and also brought into this discussion. Seems pretty unnecessary.


And, I also agree, that nothing can really be truly said until after the court case.


she could be complicit in the alleged crimes

edit- also i'm guessing Monkeyhole is one of this ladies teenage children :think:


:?

She probably is... but, why the picture of her & him at the poolside?! There's no reason for it!


Just to be clear: She IS a co-defendant. It is in the court document that PZ has posted on his blog.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1199  Postby Gallstones » Oct 25, 2010 7:59 am

riddlemethis wrote:
Seraph wrote:Looking at the document filed by the lawyer acting on behalf of the plaintiffs, a couple of points make me fear that RDFSR and Dawkins will not find this court case as easy to win as it should be. The first two items read "Breach of oral contract" and "Breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing".

The old saying that a verbal contract is not worth the paper it is written on is an exaggeration, but there is a kernel of truth in it.


What I wonder though Seraph is whether by acceptance of contracting fees JT has not explicity accepted/formalised the contract. I'm no legal expert, but coupled with the statements mentioned in the document as being caused by JT referencing the allocation of funds, this stands to reason I think. Given the burden of proof in a civil action, they might well have legs.


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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

#1200  Postby Mononoke » Oct 25, 2010 8:01 am

twistor59 wrote:
One of the commenters on that article came up with the gem:

If he had had the sense to employ somebody which Christian or Muslim values - or even somebody who had some sense of spirituality - this would have been much less likely to have happened. An atheist who believes that he has to grab everything he can in this life because when he's dead that's the end of it isn't really the best person to trust with large sums of money.


:roll:


I think he was being sarcastic
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