There is evidence that the IDF is using white phosphorus bombs in Gaza. Israel does not deny the claims.

From the New York Times...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/world/middleeast/13mideast.html?scp=1&sq=white%20phosphours&st=cse&_r=0

...
Palestinians interviewed in Gaza on Monday cited another reason for their flight: Israel soldiers, they said, are firing rounds of a noxious substance that burns skin and makes it hard to breathe.

A resident of southwest Gaza City on Monday showed a reporter a piece of metal casing with the identifying number M825A1, which Marc Garlasco, a military analyst with Human Rights Watch, identified as white phosphorus, typically used for signaling, smoke screens and destroying enemy equipment.

In recent years, experts and rights advocates have argued over whether its use to intentionally harm people violates international conventions.

Major Dallal would not say whether Israel was using white phosphorus, but said, “The munitions we use are consistent with international law.”

Still, white phosphorus can cause injury, and a growing number of Gazans report being hurt by it, including in Beit Lahiya, Khan Yunis, and in eastern and southwestern Gaza City. When exposed to air, it ignites, experts say, and if packed into an artillery shell, it can rain down flaming chemicals that cling to anything they touch.

Luay Suboh, 10, from Beit Lahiya, lost his eyesight and some skin on his face Saturday when, his mother said, a fiery substance clung to him as he darted home from a shelter where his family was staying to pick up clothes.

The substance smelled like burned trash, said Ms. Jaawanah, the mother who fled her home in Zeitoun, who had experienced it too. She had no affection for Hamas, but her sufferings were changing that. “Do you think I’m against them firing rockets now?” she asked, referring to Hamas. “No. I was against it before. Not anymore.”

…The substance smelled like burned trash, said Ms. Jaawanah, the mother who fled her home in Zeitoun, who had experienced it too. She had no affection for Hamas, but her sufferings were changing that. “Do you think I’m against them firing rockets now?” she asked, referring to Hamas. “No. I was against it before. Not anymore.”

This is why israel's crimes are ultimately self-defeating.

mrjonno wrote:
We British flattened entire German cities killing 100'000's of civilians when we were in that position. I make no bones about I would support Hamas nuking Tel Aviv if that was the only way to get them out of Palestine

This is actually kind of a funny point to make.

Firebombing campaigns of WWII, which are still largely supported by the governments that conducted them (not to mention it seems the citizens have no bones about), were easily the most deadly air raids EVER conducted. Single campaigns had death tolls of upwards of 150,000 people. The firebombing of Tokyo for instance.

I'm looking at the firebombing of London on wikipedia and it states around 200 civilians/civilian workers died. The Dresden firebombing killed ~25,000 people with bombs being dropped in two separate waves which dropped all of their bombs in a few minutes.

During the Israel-Palestine conflict a total of 21,500 people have died. That is over a span of nearly 50 years. From 1987 ~8000 civilian casualties have been Palestinian and ~1500 civilian casualties have been Israeli.

So you support Britain 'flattening German cities' which killed over 1 million German civilians in response to just over 60,000 British civilians dying and a similar amount in Japan. Yet you do not support what is going on in Palestine which has a combined civilian death toll far less than single campaigns during WWII?????

This seems like a 'It's OK when WE do it but not when YOU do it'. Is this also related to what Europeans say is 'alright' to do now days also? Surely if Europeans say it it applies to the entire world.

ED209 wrote:

…The substance smelled like burned trash, said Ms. Jaawanah, the mother who fled her home in Zeitoun, who had experienced it too. She had no affection for Hamas, but her sufferings were changing that. “Do you think I’m against them firing rockets now?” she asked, referring to Hamas. “No. I was against it before. Not anymore.”

This is why israel's crimes are ultimately self-defeating.

Self-defeating? What do you mean by that?

You think that because their attacks create more support for attacks on Israel that Israel is going to be defeated? LMFAO! The only way I see Israel will lose this war is if outside influence forces them to stop and I don't see Hamas gaining more support influencing that anytime soon. They could care less how many new recruits Hamas gets.

I would argue that everyone supporting Hamas in light of Israel attacks is self-defeating for the Palestinians. Because guess what? They join Hamas and that's just more people that are going to die in Palestine.

willhud9 wrote:

Arjan Dirkse wrote:Absolutely, and I don't understand why Israel doesn't see that time isn't on their side. They're losing; they can't destroy the opposition, because if they become too bloodthirsty they lose the last shred of legitimacy they have in the world, and they could easily be overtaken by the military power of Turkey, Iran, Syria, Egypt and the Gulf states if they went for some sort of genocidal attack on Gaza and the West Bank. If genocide is what they gamble on they will even lose the support of the US, and they would be finished. So they need to gamble for diplomacy.

It is not fucking genocide. My fucking God.

Do people not understand English or is it reinvent words to mean something it doesn't. Israel is NOT FUCKING SEEKING TO EXTERMINATE EVERY PALESTINIAN IN PALESTINE.

Until you can get your minds around that simple fact youre point is nothing but bullshit. Plain and fucking simple.

500 Palestinians a year since 1948.

4.5 million Palestinians left.

mrjonno wrote:

willhud9 wrote:

mrjonno wrote:The Gaza/Warsaw Ghetto is revolting thats what ghetto's tend to do

If you believe that the rocket attacks are simply revolts than

Now that is exactly the anti-Israel propaganda that I am used to hearing especially with the loaded language and false juxtapositions between the Warsaw ghetto and Gaza.

Not being brainwashed from birth by US media I'm just calling a spade a spade.

Hamas don't need home made rockets they need nukes. When someone occupies/enslaves your country everything is justified.

We British flattened entire German cities killing 100'000's of civilians when we were in that position. I make no bones about I would support Hamas nuking Tel Aviv if that was the only way to get them out of Palestine

Palestine nuking Israel would be the last thing they do. Hell, if Palestine even got their hands on a nuke I'm sure Israel would already know...

Maybe that would be the best thing. It'd certainly bring this war to a close much faster. Definitely not in the Palestinians favour but at least it'll be over

Without some major changes that is how its going to end complete genocide of one side or the other (or both). Weapons of mass destruction will get cheaper and more dangerous in the end they will be used. When you are in a living hell what else is left.

You are right Israel would probably the decide the risk was too great and strike first, but that is what supporting the status quo is , the eventually death of millions

Still, horrible as it is, what nation wouldn't do anything they could to get out of the horrible situation they were in, if they were reduced to living under siege like Gaza?

Would the US hesitate to fire off a couple of nukes in such a situation if they were in it? Really I doubt it. It's just warfare, it's never noble, it's ugly stuff 99 % of the time.

Acetone wrote:

ED209 wrote:

…The substance smelled like burned trash, said Ms. Jaawanah, the mother who fled her home in Zeitoun, who had experienced it too. She had no affection for Hamas, but her sufferings were changing that. “Do you think I’m against them firing rockets now?” she asked, referring to Hamas. “No. I was against it before. Not anymore.”

This is why israel's crimes are ultimately self-defeating.

Self-defeating? What do you mean by that?

You think that because their attacks create more support for attacks on Israel that Israel is going to be defeated? LMFAO! The only way I see Israel will lose this war is if outside influence forces them to stop and I don't see Hamas gaining more support influencing that anytime soon. They could care less how many new recruits Hamas gets.

I would argue that everyone supporting Hamas in light of Israel attacks is self-defeating for the Palestinians. Because guess what? They join Hamas and that's just more people that are going to die in Palestine.

Not everyone who "supports" or sympathises with Palestinians, are actually in Gaza, or intend to join Hamas.
The rest of the world is (all too gradually) becoming aware of the situation there, and it's history.

Religions are becoming less popular because of inevitable things like ... the emergence of truth.
Consequently, countries founded on the basis of religions, like "Israel", or Pakistan, are viewed increasingly less sympathetically, than they used to be.

"Israel" has (I heard) the "4th most powerful military in the world". I have no idea how this was "measured", but they certainly have sophisticated military hardware, including nuclear weapons.
They have drones, and "laser-guided" weaponry, which can strike targets "with pin-point accuracy", etc etc.
They have helicopter gunships, and fighter aircraft. They have satellites.

-On the other hand, the Palestinians have only crude, home-made, un-guided "rockets", which the "Israelis" claim that they fire "indiscriminately", and "into civilian populations".
But these weapons can't be "aimed", so IMO., that's a moot point.

They also claim that the Palestinians are "hiding amongst the civilian population", and therefore, in some way "responsible" for the disproportionately high civilian body-count.

But Gaza is one of the most densly-populated areas of the world. There is literally nowhere that innocent civilians could go, to be far away from targets, they're "walled-in", and not "allowed" to leave. It's like "shooting fish in a barrel".

If the "Israelis" really wanted to, they could surely position their "Iron Shield" (?) anti-missile defence system, right at the wall, and destroy every rocket fired, before it even began to descend..?

Willhud's "history" is truly laughable.
I prefer this:
http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

Written by people who think that they're "jews", but oppose the occupation, -and who actually seem to know what they're talking about, as far as the history goes.
I would urge Will to read it, and educate himself.
Eg;

Arab resistance to Pre-Israeli Zionism

“In 1936-9, the Palestinian Arabs attempted a nationalist revolt... David Ben-Gurion, eminently a realist, recognized its nature. In internal discussion, he noted that ‘in our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us,’ but he urged, ‘let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.’ The truth was that ‘politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside’...

The dishonesty apparent in the above quote, is all too obvious.
"‘in our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us,’ but he urged, ‘let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.’"
"Israel" will always lose, eventually, because the truth has a habit of emerging, even if that's decades, or centuries later.
Edit to add:

“Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion, quoted in “The Jewish Paradox” by Nathan Goldman, former president of the World Jewish Congress.

They fucked-up.
I don't feel there can ever be any real progress, until they stop denying it.
JMO

willhud9 wrote:

mrjonno wrote:The Gaza/Warsaw Ghetto is revolting thats what ghetto's tend to do

If you believe that the rocket attacks are simply revolts than

Aren't they home made rockets made with pipes? What is that to an air force/navy dropping precision air strikes at will, uncontested, the Palestinians have no defence. Even if "revolt" isn't the correct term, it's bloody close.

The rockets are hardly doing any physical damage to Israel at the moment, the response is not proportionate. How many children need to die before they decide that maybe they can cope with the non-threat of home made rockets in the mean time? Then possibly looking at other solutions, like stopping their military arresting and torturing arab children on bogus charges, all in the name of "national defence" of course. Seriously, why do you think these kids grow up to revolt? Their families are killed by air strikes and then them and their friends get oppressed and tortured by a foreign army? Some childhood.

Your government attacks countries thousands of kilometers away simply due to the "threat" of terrorism. Don't lecture anyone else, especially not those who actually have a real-life foreign army on their doorstep, actually bossing them around, and actually killing them every day, don't lecture them about 'not revolting' or not taking any kind of irrational measure in response to the injustice.

Not today, not ever. Not until you sort your own government's paranoia out.

Jovan urges me to read a site called ifamericansknew.

MM. No. Give me something that doesn't spell biased cherry-picking.

Again I find it rich that I am accused of being brainwashed when the only evidence of brain washing I am seeing is from other members of this forum.

Laughable really.

And to show why such a source is wrong in its rudimentary knowledge of history and geography we get this misleading bit of information in this bit right here near the beginning:

Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics — including its name in Arabic, Filastin — became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic.

1) Palestine never became a country. It was a geographical area that was part of the Syrian borders. You see under the Ottoman Empire, the province of Syria extended all the way down into Sinai and occupied all of what is now Israel/Palestine. So right off the bat the source is flat out wrong with dishing out a basic point of fact.

2) Its boundaries have fluctuated all through the middle ages. The 7th century did not set its boundaries. The most common agreed boundary was the land in the middle east that extended from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River. That would be even smaller than what modern day Palestine is today.

3) When the Ottoman Empire collapsed the Middle East was divided among Britain and France predominantly. France took Northern Syria while Britain gained control of Southern Syria and the Trans-Jordan. Southern Syria included the geographical region of Palestine it was then that Palestine was made into its own territory. But it was never a country. Ever.

So what? If Texas wanted to secede, the world would surely let them. If Palestine wants to secede, let them. They don't want to be 2nd class citizens in a state that doesn't even want them.

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:So what? If Texas wanted to secede, the world would surely let them. If Palestine wants to secede, let them. They don't want to be 2nd class citizens in a state that doesn't even want them.

This right here is called naivety. There is a reason why the separatists in the Ukraine are being met with opposition. Just because a group of people want to secede or split from another group of people and proclaim that they are their own nation does not magically make them one politically or in reality.

But this is a falsity anyways since Palestine doesn't have to secede. The only reason the walls and checkpoints were erected were because suicide bombers entering Israel from Gaza and the West Bank, their attacks being celebrated by Hamas, and the PLO, and the fact that the two leaderships repeatedly are pushing for the extermination of Israel.

You see whether Israel should or should not be there is so far beyond the point. The reality is they are there. Now Hamas can realize this and cease and desist the anti-Israel rhetoric or it can continue to meet harsh restrictions in place of its support for terrorism against the state of Israel. Until then there will not be peace.

The fact that people on this thread even support Hamas is absolutely sickening.

If you so strongly feel it's all proportionate then go and join the Israeli army. maybe you can have the pleasure of pressing the button to launch the next air strike on defenceless homes. that'll teach them to elect a bunch of crazy leaders. come to think of it, any country who elects a bunch of violent war mongers should be flattened with explosives. that should be the only requirement.

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:If you so strongly feel it's all proportionate then go and join the Israeli army. maybe you can have the pleasure of pressing the button to launch the next air strike on defenceless homes. that'll teach them to elect a bunch of crazy leaders. come to think of it, any country who elects a bunch of violent war mongers should be flattened with explosives. that should be the only requirement.

Cry harder.

So Israel should do what when its bombed? Just sit back? Maybe abolish its country and move someplace else? Because that's feasible.

I'm sure that if most people here had lived in a country that has been constantly under attack they would be singing a completely different tune about what their own country should do.

America had a single event and pretty much destroyed two entire countries, one not even remotely connected. With a shit tonne of support from within the country... Imagine if the Northern part of Mexico started sending rockets and attacking Southern USA, no matter how inefficient those attacks are. We should expect USA to take the 'moral high ground' amirite? I mean in USA it would be a bit different though because the American police forces can probably take on any attacks from Mexico.

ED209 wrote:

…The substance smelled like burned trash, said Ms. Jaawanah, the mother who fled her home in Zeitoun, who had experienced it too. She had no affection for Hamas, but her sufferings were changing that. “Do you think I’m against them firing rockets now?” she asked, referring to Hamas. “No. I was against it before. Not anymore.”

This is why israel's crimes are ultimately self-defeating.

Yes, indeed. Currently it is about revenge, before it was just about antisemitism.

willhud9 wrote:

Ihavenofingerprints wrote:If you so strongly feel it's all proportionate then go and join the Israeli army. maybe you can have the pleasure of pressing the button to launch the next air strike on defenceless homes. that'll teach them to elect a bunch of crazy leaders. come to think of it, any country who elects a bunch of violent war mongers should be flattened with explosives. that should be the only requirement.

Cry harder.

I will for all the people getting killed in their sleep when they are of no immediate threat to anyone.

So Israel should do what when its bombed? Just sit back? Maybe abolish its country and move someplace else? Because that's feasible.

It's the wrong question to ask. Israel breeds this extremism.

They can defend themselves by tracking missiles, alerting those who might be hit, and then trying to shoot the missiles down.

When Palestine has the means to run itself properly, then the responsibility for these rockets can be put onto it's people.

So once Israel remove the blockades, stop the military occupation and stop the oppression in general. They might have a leg to stand on when it comes to this sort of attack, if the rockets continued, but they don't. And they wont change anything because they know starving the Palestinians of supplies and dignity breeds this sort of environment, which is exactly what they need for the world to turn a blind eye to their increasing settlements and annexation. I mean, I don't claim to be an expert but I know what we would do if our lives were like that of the Palestinians, and it's not "sit back and do nothing".

So until there is that sort of change it's up to us to call them out on it.

As for the idea that it's like Mexico bombing the US. Yeah it is. If the USA blockaded Mexico and sent their military in.

Pebble wrote:The migration was well underway before 1933, sure it escalated then - given the closure of UK and US borders to these undeserving economic migrants.

Jordan did give citizenship (or some form of indefinite right to remain plus equal economic rights) to the first wave of Palestinian refugees - though I believe after a fight. Numbers were part of the problem - the number of refugees swamped the local Bedouin population, subsequent waves of refugees have completely changed the nature of the countries ethnic make up - I think 5/6 of the population now have roots elsewhere within 2 generations - unsurprising that they have not handed out citizenship to all. So from the comfort of your protected environment, you think they haven't done enough to solve the problems created by mass Jewish migration?

Also consider the difference between an invading army taking new land and offering the few who remain the option of citizenship of the new greater Israel, versus the position of an inland (in the case of Jordan) water poor country with millions in-fluxing wishing to share the same resources, and having just fought a prolonged terrorist campaign, not necessarily going to ask politely.

I didn't say that Arab states should fling open their borders to Palestinian refugees: I said they should offer all those already resident (the vast majority of whom are born there) the right to naturalize and integrate. Since they're already living there, it has nothing to do with resources and demographics, and everything to do with ideology. I did mention Jordan earlier in this regard, but even they're lukewarm at best, and revoked the citizenship of thousands of Palestinians a few years back (a decision since reversed).

As I said, why isn't this issue better known, and why do Arab states get such an easy ride on the matter?