In the classroom and in the Hitler Youth, instruction aimed to produce race-conscious, obedient, self-sacrificing Germans who would be willing to die for Führer and Fatherland. Devotion to Adolf Hitler was a key component of Hitler Youth training. German young people celebrated his birthday (April 20)-a national holiday-for membership inductions. German adolescents swore allegiance to Hitler and pledged to serve the nation and its leader as future soldiers.

Schools played an important role in spreading Nazi ideas to German youth. While censors removed some books from the classroom, German educators introduced new textbooks that taught students love for Hitler, obedience to state authority, militarism, racism, and antisemitism.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10007820

Not to the same level yet, but pledge of allegiance, pro military rhetoric are quite familiar, historically.

And in contrast, kids here, specially in conservative states, are taught to hate the government, and mistrust anything that comes out of Washington.

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The thread has been Godwin'd.

willhud9 wrote:The thread has been Godwin'd.

Did you expect differently?
And as it has been explained, apparently, it's not Godwin when you're showing how evil America is compared to Nazis.
Or something.
I'm probably not old enough, or lack the abilities to understand it.

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Willie71 wrote:

willhud9 wrote:Has anyone here said we should ignore war crimes? Has anyone here said that everything the military does is good? Has anyone here brow nosed everything about the US military?

Funny that Willie goes to dismiss Citos clear hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point and not a straw man) but constantly erects straw mans himself.

The hand waving continues.

Also again support of the military does not mean unilateral support of everything it does or has done or every single soldier or the US Department of Defense. Willie played dodgeball with my earlie post and his response to it was "it was so childish it was beneath him."

I wonder what about my former post was childish, but then again Willie doesn't seem intent on actually having a civil discussion, just seems to want to continue patronizing.

That's what's wrong with most older folks. They want us younger folks to respect them for being older and wiser and yet they talk down to us as if we are to be coddled. No thank you.

Well, my post was pretty damn clear, but you still don't seem to understabd it. Are you aware of Dunning Kruger? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

You seem to lack the ability to understand the nuance in the distinction in the balance of good and bad that has been discussed. Nobody talks about the good Isis does (they have engaged community building) or the good the Nazis did, as the negatives are not anywhere on the same scale. I'll let you figure out how this applies to the discussion, since you claim to feel patronized.

Prediction: Will will claim I'm anti American, or anti military, completely missing the well documented and confirmed history of American war crimes. He will somehow rationalize the good outweighs the bad, and that I am biased.

Well your prediction is false as I won't claim you are anti-American or anti-military because you are against war crimes.

Because guess what? I am against war crimes to. Find me a statement that says I am supportive of war crimes?

Now you may consider more things than I do war crimes and you may also have a wider view of what should/does constitute war crimes, but those are differences in legal and ethical opinions which can be discussed with merit as they should be.

But 1) Your citation of Dunning-Krueger is fallacious. Since 1) I am not pretending to be a voice of authority and 2) Unless your education/job credentials as a psychologist also includes American history academic with credentials you are no more an authority than I am.

Stating you are older than I am and therefore more educated is a form of special pleading. Educated how? College sure? Is college the only measure of education? Absolutely not.

In this regards you are no more my superior than I am your superior and never once have I said I know more about this than you do nor have I tried to use that as an excuse. Dunning-Krueger does not apply.

Willie71 wrote:Btw, America has committed some of the most evil acts in world history. Assuming imperialism fails, history books will not be kind to America looking back on how they handled the Middle East and Central America. The poverty and incarceration problems are the worst of any first world country too. It's not an anti American sentiment, it's human decency to call attention to it.

The same can be said about the British (India and Pakistan), the French (Indochina and Vietnam were as much their fault as the US's), and the current state of Africa can pretty much be blamed on EUROPEAN imperialism (Since America had no territories in Africa).

But do tell me about these evil acts in world history. Your definition of evil must surely be very wide and generic indeed.

willhud9 wrote:

Willie71 wrote:Btw, America has committed some of the most evil acts in world history. Assuming imperialism fails, history books will not be kind to America looking back on how they handled the Middle East and Central America. The poverty and incarceration problems are the worst of any first world country too. It's not an anti American sentiment, it's human decency to call attention to it.

The same can be said about the British (India and Pakistan), the French (Indochina and Vietnam were as much their fault as the US's), and the current state of Africa can pretty much be blamed on EUROPEAN imperialism (Since America had no territories in Africa).

But do tell me about these evil acts in world history. Your definition of evil must surely be very wide and generic indeed.

Yes, the British and the French and others have also on occasion been responsible for terrible atrocities.

Surely that is not a defense for the USA? That 'everybody is doing it'?

Will, you misunderstand Godwin, and Dunning-Kruger. We can't discuss further until you re-read the definitions/descriptions.

MarkP80 wrote:And in contrast, kids here, specially in conservative states, are taught to hate the government, and mistrust anything that comes out of Washington.

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They worship the constitution, and they support/idealize republicans who protect them from the "extreme left", "Muslims", "illegal immigrants" and "Obama."

Please explain how that is different? Democrats are less likely to be pro-military, and many think Obama is too hawkish. The republicans, on the other hand, have no shortage of enemies who are a national threat and want to destroy the American way of life. It's the republicans who much better mirror the fascist ideologies than democrats, but Hillary is pretty fascist in many regards.

Willie71 wrote:Will, you misunderstand Godwin, and Dunning-Kruger. We can't discuss further until you re-read the definitions/descriptions.

More dodgeball. I am familiar with the definitions apparently you are not.

Willie71 wrote:

MarkP80 wrote:And in contrast, kids here, specially in conservative states, are taught to hate the government, and mistrust anything that comes out of Washington.

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They worship the constitution, and they support/idealize republicans who protect them from the "extreme left", "Muslims", "illegal immigrants" and "Obama."

Please explain how that is different? Democrats are less likely to be pro-military, and many think Obama is too hawkish. The republicans, on the other hand, have no shortage of enemies who are a national threat and want to destroy the American way of life. It's the republicans who much better mirror the fascist ideologies than democrats, but Hillary is pretty fascist in many regards.

So are you taking about America, or about a segment of the Republican party?

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willhud9 wrote:

Willie71 wrote:Will, you misunderstand Godwin, and Dunning-Kruger. We can't discuss further until you re-read the definitions/descriptions.

More dodgeball. I am familiar with the definitions apparently you are not.

You claimed you never claimed to be an expert. Dunning Kruger is the overestimation of someone with low information's knowledge on a situation, and experts' overestimation of others' knowledge. I'm apparently guilty of the latter (not claiming expertise, just being well read on the subject, but I'm clearly overestimating will's ability to get these points.). I thought you would understand the first part.

Godwin usually refers to calling someone a Nazi for having rigid positions (the form I see the most.) it also refers to false equivalencies between naziism and others. I am discussing the trend in American politics and propaganda towards fascism. The comparison is legit, not a falicy.

MarkP80 wrote:

Willie71 wrote:

MarkP80 wrote:And in contrast, kids here, specially in conservative states, are taught to hate the government, and mistrust anything that comes out of Washington.

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They worship the constitution, and they support/idealize republicans who protect them from the "extreme left", "Muslims", "illegal immigrants" and "Obama."

Please explain how that is different? Democrats are less likely to be pro-military, and many think Obama is too hawkish. The republicans, on the other hand, have no shortage of enemies who are a national threat and want to destroy the American way of life. It's the republicans who much better mirror the fascist ideologies than democrats, but Hillary is pretty fascist in many regards.

So are you taking about America, or about a segment of the Republican party?

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America is jingoistic and propaganda ridden in general, but the republican base, and the current crop of republican presidential candidates are fascist. A few are dominionists and reconstructionists, the Christian equivalent of radical Islam.

proudfootz wrote:

willhud9 wrote:

Willie71 wrote:Btw, America has committed some of the most evil acts in world history. Assuming imperialism fails, history books will not be kind to America looking back on how they handled the Middle East and Central America. The poverty and incarceration problems are the worst of any first world country too. It's not an anti American sentiment, it's human decency to call attention to it.

The same can be said about the British (India and Pakistan), the French (Indochina and Vietnam were as much their fault as the US's), and the current state of Africa can pretty much be blamed on EUROPEAN imperialism (Since America had no territories in Africa).

But do tell me about these evil acts in world history. Your definition of evil must surely be very wide and generic indeed.

Yes, the British and the French and others have also on occasion been responsible for terrible atrocities.

Surely that is not a defense for the USA? That 'everybody is doing it'?

It is also dishonest, however, to single out the USA as an evil above other nations, and when it is pointed out the other nations are just as evil, the answer is, yeah, but the US should be better than the other ones.

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MarkP80 wrote:

proudfootz wrote:

willhud9 wrote:

Willie71 wrote:Btw, America has committed some of the most evil acts in world history. Assuming imperialism fails, history books will not be kind to America looking back on how they handled the Middle East and Central America. The poverty and incarceration problems are the worst of any first world country too. It's not an anti American sentiment, it's human decency to call attention to it.

The same can be said about the British (India and Pakistan), the French (Indochina and Vietnam were as much their fault as the US's), and the current state of Africa can pretty much be blamed on EUROPEAN imperialism (Since America had no territories in Africa).

But do tell me about these evil acts in world history. Your definition of evil must surely be very wide and generic indeed.

Yes, the British and the French and others have also on occasion been responsible for terrible atrocities.

Surely that is not a defense for the USA? That 'everybody is doing it'?

It is also dishonest, however, to single out the USA as an evil above other nations, and when it is pointed out the other nations are just as evil, the answer is, yeah, but the US should be better than the other ones.

I'm not one who is asserting the USA is 'evil' - let alone 'evil above all other nations'.

As a citizen of the USA, it is my right and my duty to correct the policies and actions carried out in my name.

Since it is a typical attitude from boosters that the USA is, in fact, better than everyone else they damn well better walk the walk and not just shout about how wonderful it is.

MarkP80 wrote:

proudfootz wrote:

willhud9 wrote:

Willie71 wrote:Btw, America has committed some of the most evil acts in world history. Assuming imperialism fails, history books will not be kind to America looking back on how they handled the Middle East and Central America. The poverty and incarceration problems are the worst of any first world country too. It's not an anti American sentiment, it's human decency to call attention to it.

The same can be said about the British (India and Pakistan), the French (Indochina and Vietnam were as much their fault as the US's), and the current state of Africa can pretty much be blamed on EUROPEAN imperialism (Since America had no territories in Africa).

But do tell me about these evil acts in world history. Your definition of evil must surely be very wide and generic indeed.

Yes, the British and the French and others have also on occasion been responsible for terrible atrocities.

Surely that is not a defense for the USA? That 'everybody is doing it'?

It is also dishonest, however, to single out the USA as an evil above other nations, and when it is pointed out the other nations are just as evil, the answer is, yeah, but the US should be better than the other ones.

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The USA led the coalition, and in many cases acted unilaterally. In Canada, we threw out Harper who wanted to continue the military action, so we have our military out now.

Willie71 wrote:

MarkP80 wrote:

proudfootz wrote:

willhud9 wrote:



The same can be said about the British (India and Pakistan), the French (Indochina and Vietnam were as much their fault as the US's), and the current state of Africa can pretty much be blamed on EUROPEAN imperialism (Since America had no territories in Africa).

But do tell me about these evil acts in world history. Your definition of evil must surely be very wide and generic indeed.

Yes, the British and the French and others have also on occasion been responsible for terrible atrocities.

Surely that is not a defense for the USA? That 'everybody is doing it'?

It is also dishonest, however, to single out the USA as an evil above other nations, and when it is pointed out the other nations are just as evil, the answer is, yeah, but the US should be better than the other ones.

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The USA led the coalition, and in many cases acted unilaterally. In Canada, we threw out Harper who wanted to continue the military action, so we have our military out now.

Led the coalition on European Imperialism?
By the way, I was raised in Europe.
And I remember being taught about how great Portugal was.
How we were the greatest at discovering new lands. How bravely we fought against the Romans.
Everytime Portugal gets the number one spot at something, they would be sure to let us know.
Heck, I even remember my primary school teacher teaching us that Muslims worshiped the sun, and that's why Portugal, believing in the one true God, was able to drive them out of our lands.
So you tell me the USA is unique in this. I tell you every country does it.

proudfootz wrote:

MarkP80 wrote:

proudfootz wrote:

willhud9 wrote:



The same can be said about the British (India and Pakistan), the French (Indochina and Vietnam were as much their fault as the US's), and the current state of Africa can pretty much be blamed on EUROPEAN imperialism (Since America had no territories in Africa).

But do tell me about these evil acts in world history. Your definition of evil must surely be very wide and generic indeed.

Yes, the British and the French and others have also on occasion been responsible for terrible atrocities.

Surely that is not a defense for the USA? That 'everybody is doing it'?

It is also dishonest, however, to single out the USA as an evil above other nations, and when it is pointed out the other nations are just as evil, the answer is, yeah, but the US should be better than the other ones.

I'm not one who is asserting the USA is 'evil' - let alone 'evil above all other nations'.

As a citizen of the USA, it is my right and my duty to correct the policies and actions carried out in my name.

Since it is a typical attitude from boosters that the USA is, in fact, better than everyone else they damn well better walk the walk and not just shout about how wonderful it is.

It was not my intention to imply you were the one stating it.
I was merely pointing out that I it can be a valid point when people are claiming the US is unique in this regard.

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Evel Knievel - an American flag, cheating death from the saddle of an iron horse.