andyx1205 wrote:

Loren Michael wrote:

andyx1205 wrote:The only help we want from the outside is from the working classes outside, the working classes in the West, it is with the international working class that we are allied with. You think we're too dumb to solve our own problems?

Dude you're in Canada.

And it is in India and Pakistan where I will fight when the time comes, I am in touch with comrades there regularly that risk their lives every day and some have been blown up or shot n killed.

Ah forgive me comrade I thought you might have been presumptuous, speaking from a comfortable perch furnished by the system you despise, speaking for hundreds of millions of people you know nothing about. I mean, those figures of hundreds of millions of people who would like to go to America seemed to my novice-socialist eyes to put the lie to your notions of what people want.

I mean, I was thinking for a brief, foolish moment that it's easy to say what "we" want when you're in comfort.

I see now that your correspondence with people on the ground veritably puts you in their shoes. Fight on, comrade!

Once, Sean Parker corresponded with me on Twitter. For a brief moment, we were in each other's shoes.

andyx1205 wrote:
I am a revolutionary and Marxist

You are also hilarious.

andyx1205 wrote:The Brits here may remember the Militant Tendency which operated under the Entryist strategy in Labour Party

How could I forget, 30 years later my home city is still suffering the after effects of what they did to it.

natselrox wrote:At the age of fifteen, who doesn't?

Unfair, many people have already grown out of it by the age of fifteen.

The fight for socialism is international, it shouldn't matter where I am.

It amazes me that atheists apply the rational, scientific approach towards religion but abandon it when it comes to the most important sphere of life, politics, and especially, history. The ruling class is not stupid, they haven't been attacking Marxism all these years, that is, a "dead" ideology, for no reason, rather, it is because they understand that Marxism and its ideas are very dangerous and a direct threat to the ruling class.

For anyone interested in applying the scientific approach to history and politics, for anyone genuinely interested in the ideas of Marxism, I'll share a couple videos.

This is Alan Woods at a recent talk at UCLU. As he says, those who become older usually become more stupid and apathetic in comparison to the youth who have a thirst for knowledge and science and ideas that are important in creating a better world. I had the honour of meeting him last October and it is since then that I joined the organization though I had been following the http://www.marxist.com website as well as educating myself on the ideas of revolutionary Marxism for a couple years from my transition away from idealist anarchism. He is the one of the main theoreticians of IMT, along with Lal Khan (whom leads Pakistan section) and Rob Sewell, he was actively involved in the resistance against the Franco dictatorship in Spain. Lal Khan, I should note, had to flee Pakistan as a student as he had a shoot-to-kill warrant on him for opposing the Islamic fundamentalist and brutal dictatorship of Zia-al-haq who had just taken over in a Western backed coup and killed the previously democratically elected reformist socialist leader, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.

Enjoy for those interested, for those wishing to live in a world where the ruling ideas are those that are scientific rather than simply being means of propaganda to support the rule of the ruling class.

http://youtu.be/qHz_PbKs6Jo

http://youtu.be/YISdp8oeVA8

Cheers, and for a world where every man woman and child, irrespective of nationality ethnicity language or religion has access to the necessities of life in order to be free to pursue their potential and exercise their creative and inventive instinct. Only then can we finally come together as a civilization to pursue our potential civilization in a direction that advances science and technology to not only create a better world but to better understand the world! It is time to bring an end to barbarity.

Strontium Dog wrote:

andyx1205 wrote:The Brits here may remember the Militant Tendency which operated under the Entryist strategy in Labour Party

How could I forget, 30 years later my home city is still suffering the after effects of what they did to it.

natselrox wrote:At the age of fifteen, who doesn't?

Unfair, many people have already grown out of it by the age of fifteen.

What Nick Clegg and the Liberals did to Britain in their betrayal against their constituencies by collaborating with the Tories to pursue an agenda that puts the working class on the defensive will be felt by Brits for the next decade, as the Guardian noted, the next decade will see no rise in quality of life in Britain but only permanent austerity. You can put the Labour Party in there as well, and with the collapse of the sectarian Socialist Worker's Party and the growth of the British section of the IMT, the Militant Tendency will once again reclaim its place by working within the Labour Party to give voice to the ear of the working class in order to expose the Labour leadership for its capitalist policies, and to make the case for the alternative, for socialism.

Loren Michael wrote:

andyx1205 wrote:

Loren Michael wrote:

andyx1205 wrote:The only help we want from the outside is from the working classes outside, the working classes in the West, it is with the international working class that we are allied with. You think we're too dumb to solve our own problems?

Dude you're in Canada.

And it is in India and Pakistan where I will fight when the time comes, I am in touch with comrades there regularly that risk their lives every day and some have been blown up or shot n killed.

Ah forgive me comrade I thought you might have been presumptuous, speaking from a comfortable perch furnished by the system you despise, speaking for hundreds of millions of people you know nothing about. I mean, those figures of hundreds of millions of people who would like to go to America seemed to my novice-socialist eyes to put the lie to your notions of what people want.

I mean, I was thinking for a brief, foolish moment that it's easy to say what "we" want when you're in comfort.

I see now that your correspondence with people on the ground veritably puts you in their shoes. Fight on, comrade!

Once, Sean Parker corresponded with me on Twitter. For a brief moment, we were in each other's shoes.

People I do not know? Maybe you don't know but I'm Punjabi, half of us are in Pakistan, though my background as being raised Sikh is in India. I keep in touch with those working in terrible conditions in both India and Pakistan regularly. Nonetheless, this shouldn't matter, privilege is never a good argument. I can say I've been stabbed maced almost machetted but well that is irrelevant, I can say politics helps me direct my militancy in a better direction. Oh, I don't have to answer if I have been victim to those attacks, I don't need to engage in a my balls are bigger than yours contest on a forum.

You guys can launch as many personal attacks as you can. I urge those actually interested in the political views I have expressed to ignore those who wish to shut me up and provoke me into getting banned to actually view the links I provided. There is a reason I am being cornered and attacked, because the ideas I espouse are very dangerous, they are dangerous against the system that continues to produce the same barbarity, a barbarity that kills 15 million people a year...and that's the good figure out of the whole list of statistics.

Every revolutionary movement starts as a minority. Where our strength lies is in our ideas, and you cannot defeat an idea whose time has come.

andyx1205 wrote:
And it is in India and Pakistan where I will fight when the time comes, I am in touch with comrades there regularly that risk their lives every day and some have been blown up or shot n killed.

andyx wrote: ... and you cannot defeat an idea whose time has come ...

How do you ascertain that the time of an idea has come?

andyx1205 wrote:I can say I've been stabbed maced almost machetted but well that is irrelevant

Have you seen the film Airplane? It's a parody of an earlier disaster move called Airport but that's not important right now. Almost machetted? Fuck me, that's awful. I've been almost blown up by the IRA. Does that entitle me to join the Brotherhood? If that's not enough I've been almost annihilated by a nuclear warhead for the bourgeois crime of living near a submarine base. Oh but that nuclear warhead belonged to the socialist comrades of the USSR, so maybe I shouldn't mention it? Forget I said that.

andyx1205 wrote:Oh, I don't have to answer if I have been victim to those attacks, I don't need to engage in a my balls are bigger than yours contest on a forum.

True. But you just did. Above. So, how big are we talking about? Cox's Pippin size? Grapefruit? Shire horse? Give us more information.

andyx1205 wrote:You guys can launch as many personal attacks as you can. I urge those actually interested in the political views I have expressed to ignore those who wish to shut me up and provoke me into getting banned to actually view the links I provided.

Wish to shut you up? Are you nuts? This is the best material I've seen on Ratskep since Noah was a boy. Keep it up.

andyx1205 wrote: There is a reason I am being cornered and attacked, because the ideas I espouse are very dangerous

Who has cornered you? I bet it's those fucks from Langley. They are everywhere. I think I might even be one of them but they won't answer my phone calls to confirm.

andyx1205 wrote:Every revolutionary movement starts as a minority.

Ain't that the truth? Most of them end as a minority too but don't let the Judean Popular Front example put you off. The military-industrial complex is crumbling. One day students will wear t-shirts with your portrait on them. On with the struggle! Communismo o morte!

NilsGLindgren wrote:

andyx wrote: ... and you cannot defeat an idea whose time has come ...

How do you ascertain that the time of an idea has come?

When the bourgeois revolutions came with the rising capitalist class overthrowing feudalism, this was a monumental achievement for the objective advancement of society. The bourgeois ideas of the classical liberals from the great bourgeois philosophers were very radical in context of that time, and the old feudal order could no longer survive these new ideas.

Capitalism has long lost its objectively productive function of advancing society, for a long while it has barely been holding on, and now the only way capitalism can recover is through austerity. The capitalists are not giving us austerity because they are evil but because it is the only solution, hence the only solutions under capitalism as presented by the various political powers are austerity, austerity, and austerity. The only difference is in the amount and speed of austerity.

The conditions today are far greater for socialism than they were in the past when the working class was not as large, we have the means to transition towards a new society.

For the majority of human existence, of our 100,000 years, the majority were under a form of primitive communism. The rise of civilization aka class based society is only a minority, around 10,000 to 12,000 years ago. But this was objectively necessary for advancement of society.

Human progress came from being free from want. Those who did not have to worry about the necessities of life could philosophize, that is, to think, and from here is where our advancement comes from. So we had slave society under the great Greek and Roman civilizations, but it was because of slavery that these societies greatly advanced humanity, objectively speaking, since slavery meant a number of people were freed from want and could philosophize. With the fall of the Roman Empire, that is, with the fall of Civilization, you had barbarism, we fell into barbarism as civilization fell. Here you have the Dark Ages. With the collapse of civilization today if we do not adapt to change, we will fall again to barbarism, like I said, the future is of permanent austerity.

Feudalism saw very little advancement, a lot of advancement during that time was in the Muslim World while the Christians were the barbarians. Anyways, the Bourgeois revolution and smashing of feudalism was a very big step forward.

We live in a world today where we really have two choices, barbarism or socialism. As Charles Darwin said, it is not those who are the strongest or smartest who survive but those most adaptable to change. Conditions are ready for socialism, but history is written not by determinism but by active struggle on part of the masses, history is written by class struggle and history will be written by the ongoing and escalating class struggle, by the victors of the class war.

Under feudalism, you had the serfs. Under capitalism, while a historical achievement in advancing society, you had and have wage-slaves. As Karl Marx said, capitalism creates its own grave-diggers since its progressive function is to industrialize and advance society, and it is brutal (anyone knowing history of capitalism knows this) but it moves people from rural areas to urban areas, it creates the working class that will overthrow it.

To quote Rosa Luxemburg:
"Bourgeois class domination is undoubtedly an historical necessity, but, so too, the rising of the working class against it. Capital is an historical necessity, but, so too, its grave digger, the socialist proletariat."

If you would like a fuller answer to your question I strongly recommend the Alan Woods video I posted, the beginning of the first video delves into the question you ask. It is a very educational lecture. There is plenty of educational and wealthy material on the website, besides Marxism and Leninism, the analysis of historical events is amazing! Search 1848 revolution, or the French Revolution, or whatever you wish, there exists a wealth of information. http://www.marxist.com

For the majority of the human species, 85% of our existence if you believe the conservative estimate of the human species being around for around 100,000 years, despite the bourgeois propaganda who wish to revise historical fact, we lived under primitive communism. We are heading, if we win the class struggle, to the same system, only on a higher plane. Conditions shape man, yet, we have the very ability to change the conditions we live in. The initial rise of class society was a historical necessity, and so too is its abolition.

"The time which has passed away since civilisation began is but a fragment of the past duration of man’s existence; and but a fragment of the ages yet to come. The dissolution of society bids fair to become the termination of a career of which property is the end and aim; because such a career contains the elements of self-destruction. Democracy in government, brotherhood in society, equality in rights and privileges, and universal education, foreshadow the next higher plane of society to which experience, intelligence and knowledge are steadily tending. It will be a revival, in a higher form, of the liberty, equality and fraternity of the ancient gentes.”
- Lewis H Morgan (1877)

“In the fifty years from 1913 (the height of pre-war production) to 1963, despite two world wars, foreign intervention and civil war, and other calamities total industrial output rose more than 52 times. The corresponding figure for the USA was less than six times, while Britain struggled to double its output. In other words Soviet Union was transformed from a backward agricultural economy into the second most powerful nation on earth, with a mighty industrial base, a high cultural level and more scientists than the USA and Japan combined.

This bit struck me.

There is a claimed raise of industrial output of 52 times. It then goes on to marvel at the transformation from being an agricultural economy to an industrial one. If you start of with little industry making it 52 times bigger than bugger all is far far less work than starting with a large industry and doubling. This is especially true when the nation that doubled it (albeit struggling to do so) was also devastated by a pair of global wars and pretty much bankrupted by them.

Blackadder wrote:

andyx1205 wrote:I can say I've been stabbed maced almost machetted but well that is irrelevant

Have you seen the film Airplane? It's a parody of an earlier disaster move called Airport but that's not important right now. Almost machetted? Fuck me, that's awful. I've been almost blown up by the IRA. Does that entitle me to join the Brotherhood? If that's not enough I've been almost annihilated by a nuclear warhead for the bourgeois crime of living near a submarine base. Oh but that nuclear warhead belonged to the socialist comrades of the USSR, so maybe I shouldn't mention it? Forget I said that.

andyx1205 wrote:Oh, I don't have to answer if I have been victim to those attacks, I don't need to engage in a my balls are bigger than yours contest on a forum.

True. But you just did. Above. So, how big are we talking about? Cox's Pippin size? Grapefruit? Shire horse? Give us more information.

andyx1205 wrote:You guys can launch as many personal attacks as you can. I urge those actually interested in the political views I have expressed to ignore those who wish to shut me up and provoke me into getting banned to actually view the links I provided.

Wish to shut you up? Are you nuts? This is the best material I've seen on Ratskep since Noah was a boy. Keep it up.

andyx1205 wrote: There is a reason I am being cornered and attacked, because the ideas I espouse are very dangerous

Who has cornered you? I bet it's those fucks from Langley. They are everywhere. I think I might even be one of them but they won't answer my phone calls to confirm.

andyx1205 wrote:Every revolutionary movement starts as a minority.

Ain't that the truth? Most of them end as a minority too but don't let the Judean Popular Front example put you off. The military-industrial complex is crumbling. One day students will wear t-shirts with your portrait on them. On with the struggle! Communismo o morte!

I said it's irrelevant, Loren started this my attacking my privilege, by saying I am sitting here comfortably typing on a computer.

How big are my balls? Haven't measured them, but I have enough courage to be willing to play my role, to be willing to fight if need be and die if need be.

You don't know my history on this forum. I would be as polite as possible in my political engagements only to get provoked and pulled into making a comment, and the mods would suspend me while not suspending others who made personal attacks against me. Threads were created by fellow forum members I keep in touch with but no longer post here in opposition to the mod decisions. There's a long history of mod abuse on this forum.

I wonder how much percentage of the posts in this thread are personal attacks against me and how many are actually related to the material in this thread.

andyx1205 wrote:

NilsGLindgren wrote:

andyx wrote: ... and you cannot defeat an idea whose time has come ...

How do you ascertain that the time of an idea has come?

When the bourgeois revolutions came with the rising capitalist class overthrowing feudalism, this was a monumental achievement for the objective advancement of society. The bourgeois ideas of the classical liberals from the great bourgeois philosophers were very radical in context of that time, and the old feudal order could no longer survive these new ideas.

Capitalism has long lost its objectively productive function of advancing society, for a long while it has barely been holding on, and now the only way capitalism can recover is through austerity. The capitalists are not giving us austerity because they are evil but because it is the only solution, hence the only solutions under capitalism as presented by the various political powers are austerity, austerity, and austerity. The only difference is in the amount and speed of austerity.

The conditions today are far greater for socialism than they were in the past when the working class was not as large, we have the means to transition towards a new society.

For the majority of human existence, of our 100,000 years, the majority were under a form of primitive communism. The rise of civilization aka class based society is only a minority, around 10,000 to 12,000 years ago. But this was objectively necessary for advancement of society.

Human progress came from being free from want. Those who did not have to worry about the necessities of life could philosophize, that is, to think, and from here is where our advancement comes from. So we had slave society under the great Greek and Roman civilizations, but it was because of slavery that these societies greatly advanced humanity, objectively speaking, since slavery meant a number of people were freed from want and could philosophize. With the fall of the Roman Empire, that is, with the fall of Civilization, you had barbarism, we fell into barbarism as civilization fell. Here you have the Dark Ages. With the collapse of civilization today if we do not adapt to change, we will fall again to barbarism, like I said, the future is of permanent austerity.

Feudalism saw very little advancement, a lot of advancement during that time was in the Muslim World while the Christians were the barbarians. Anyways, the Bourgeois revolution and smashing of feudalism was a very big step forward.

We live in a world today where we really have two choices, barbarism or socialism. As Charles Darwin said, it is not those who are the strongest or smartest who survive but those most adaptable to change. Conditions are ready for socialism, but history is written not by determinism but by active struggle on part of the masses, history is written by class struggle and history will be written by the ongoing and escalating class struggle, by the victors of the class war.

Under feudalism, you had the serfs. Under capitalism, while a historical achievement in advancing society, you had and have wage-slaves. As Karl Marx said, capitalism creates its own grave-diggers since its progressive function is to industrialize and advance society, and it is brutal (anyone knowing history of capitalism knows this) but it moves people from rural areas to urban areas, it creates the working class that will overthrow it.

To quote Rosa Luxemburg:
"Bourgeois class domination is undoubtedly an historical necessity, but, so too, the rising of the working class against it. Capital is an historical necessity, but, so too, its grave digger, the socialist proletariat."

If you would like a fuller answer to your question I strongly recommend the Alan Woods video I posted, the beginning of the first video delves into the question you ask. It is a very educational lecture. There is plenty of educational and wealthy material on the website, besides Marxism and Leninism, the analysis of historical events is amazing! Search 1848 revolution, or the French Revolution, or whatever you wish, there exists a wealth of information. http://www.marxist.com

For the majority of the human species, 85% of our existence if you believe the conservative estimate of the human species being around for around 100,000 years, despite the bourgeois propaganda who wish to revise historical fact, we lived under primitive communism. We are heading, if we win the class struggle, to the same system, only on a higher plane. Conditions shape man, yet, we have the very ability to change the conditions we live in. The initial rise of class society was a historical necessity, and so too is its abolition.

"The time which has passed away since civilisation began is but a fragment of the past duration of man’s existence; and but a fragment of the ages yet to come. The dissolution of society bids fair to become the termination of a career of which property is the end and aim; because such a career contains the elements of self-destruction. Democracy in government, brotherhood in society, equality in rights and privileges, and universal education, foreshadow the next higher plane of society to which experience, intelligence and knowledge are steadily tending. It will be a revival, in a higher form, of the liberty, equality and fraternity of the ancient gentes.”
- Lewis H Morgan (1877)

Jumbo wrote:

“In the fifty years from 1913 (the height of pre-war production) to 1963, despite two world wars, foreign intervention and civil war, and other calamities total industrial output rose more than 52 times. The corresponding figure for the USA was less than six times, while Britain struggled to double its output. In other words Soviet Union was transformed from a backward agricultural economy into the second most powerful nation on earth, with a mighty industrial base, a high cultural level and more scientists than the USA and Japan combined.

This bit struck me.

There is a claimed raise of industrial output of 52 times. It then goes on to marvel at the transformation from being an agricultural economy to an industrial one. If you start of with little industry making it 52 times bigger than bugger all is far far less work than starting with a large industry and doubling. This is especially true when the nation that doubled it (albeit struggling to do so) was also devastated by a pair of global wars and pretty much bankrupted by them.

It shows the strength of the planned economy, the USSR made historical achievements in industrialization and advancement in a very small timeframe. Just a little off-topic but this is related.

In WW2, despite the myth of it being a war against fascism, the strategy of Allies was to let the Nazis defeat the USSR so then a weakened Germany could mean that the Allies could kill two birds with one stone. However, due to the immense strength of the planned economy in utilizing the resources of the USSR, the Russians, to the very surprise of the Allies, were not defeated, instead, they fought back hard pushing back the Nazis and then the Red Army was rolling through Europe. It was then seen to be a priority to more directly intervene before the Red Army took over all of Europe where the masses might just get radicalized by what they saw as liberation. I hope you don't mind me quoting a few stuff from this article but it's important to show strength of the planned economy in context of WW2. Mind you, Russia was more backwards in 1917 than India or Pakistan today, yet by WW2 was able to defeat the fucking Nazis!

http://www.marxist.com/seventy-years-si ... -nazis.htm

The truth is that the war against Hitler in Europe was fought mainly by the USSR and the Red Army. Following the invasion of the Soviet Union in the summer of 1941, Moscow repeatedly demanded the opening of a second front against Germany. But Churchill was in no hurry to oblige. The reason for this was not so much military as political. The policies and tactics of the British and American ruling class in the Second World War were not at all dictated by a love of democracy or hatred of fascism, as the official propaganda wants us to believe, but by class interests.

When Hitler invaded the USSR in 1941, the British ruling class calculated that the Soviet Union would be defeated by Germany, but that in the process Germany would be so enfeebled that it would be possible to step in and kill two birds with one stone. It is likely that the strategists in Washington were thinking on more or less similar lines.

However, from late 1943 it became clear to the Americans that the USSR was winning the war on the eastern front and if nothing was done, the Red Army would just roll through Europe.

The concerns of the imperialists were openly expressed in a meeting of the Joint British and American Chiefs of Staff that took place in Cairo on November 25, 1943. They noted that "the Russian campaign has succeeded beyond all hope and expectations [that is, the hopes of the Russians and the expectations of their "allies"] and their victorious advance continues." Yet Churchill continued to argue for a postponement of Operation Overlord.

The plans of both the British and US ruling circles were fundamentally flawed. Instead of being defeated by Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union fought back and inflicted a decisive defeat on Hitler's armies. The reason for this extraordinary victory can never be admitted by the defenders of capitalism, but it is a self-evident fact. The existence of a nationalised planned economy gave the USSR an enormous advantage in the war. Despite the criminal policies of Stalin, which nearly brought about the collapse of the USSR at the beginning of the war, the Soviet Union was able to swiftly recover and rebuild its industrial and military capacity.

In 1943 alone, the USSR produced 130,000 pieces of artillery, 24,000 tanks and self-propelled guns, 29,900 combat aircraft. The Nazis, with all the huge resources of Europe behind them, also stepped up production, turning out 73,000 pieces of artillery, 10,700 tanks and assault guns and 19,300 combat aircraft. (See V. Sipols, The Road to a Great Victory, p. 132.) These figures speak for themselves. The USSR, by mobilising the immense power of a planned economy, managed to out-produce and outgun the mighty Wehrmacht. That is the secret of its success.

Despite the monstrous crimes of Stalin and the Bureaucracy, the nationalized planned economy represented an enormous historic conquest. Compared with the barbarism of fascism – the distilled essence of imperialism and monopoly capitalism, these were things worth fighting and dying for. The working people of the USSR did both on the most appalling scale.

Hitler had also hugely miscalculated. Stalin had purged the Soviet army of some of its best commanding officers. Therefore Hitler believed this would be to his advantage and would allow him to sweep eastwards and in so doing he would be able to destroy the Soviet Union and its planned economy. But the planned economy, in spite of the bureaucracy, proved far more resilient. As we have seen, it was what gave the Soviet Union its strength and ability to fight back.

The Soviet Union’s great victories, and eventual smashing of Hitler’s once mighty war machine, despite all the mythology that was subsequently created about Stalin the “Great War Leader”, were in spite of Stalin and the bureaucracy. They had brought the Soviet Union to the very brink of catastrophe. Only the determination of the Soviet workers and soldiers to defend the USSR and the gains of the October Revolution and the striking superiority of the nationalized planned economy saved the day.

This is the strength of the planned economy, despite capitalist propaganda, a phenomenal achievement that was the only gain of the 1917 Russian Revolution that existed under the Stalinist totalitarian dictatorship in USSR (as noted in the other article on Bolshevik Revolution, Stalin, filling a niche, carried out the counter-revolution by the bureaucracy which rose due to objective conditions in Russia and hence had its own material interests to defend). Of course the planned economy did not utilize its full strength, it was under the control of the bureaucracy rather than the democratic control of the workers.

Has anyone worked out what all this chest beating has to do with Malala?

andyx1205 wrote:

Jumbo wrote:

“In the fifty years from 1913 (the height of pre-war production) to 1963, despite two world wars, foreign intervention and civil war, and other calamities total industrial output rose more than 52 times. The corresponding figure for the USA was less than six times, while Britain struggled to double its output. In other words Soviet Union was transformed from a backward agricultural economy into the second most powerful nation on earth, with a mighty industrial base, a high cultural level and more scientists than the USA and Japan combined.

This bit struck me.

There is a claimed raise of industrial output of 52 times. It then goes on to marvel at the transformation from being an agricultural economy to an industrial one. If you start of with little industry making it 52 times bigger than bugger all is far far less work than starting with a large industry and doubling. This is especially true when the nation that doubled it (albeit struggling to do so) was also devastated by a pair of global wars and pretty much bankrupted by them.

It shows the strength of the planned economy, the USSR made historical achievements in industrialization and advancement in a very small timeframe. Just a little off-topic but this is related.

In WW2, despite the myth of it being a war against fascism, the strategy of Allies was to let the Nazis defeat the USSR so then a weakened Germany could mean that the Allies could kill two birds with one stone. However, due to the immense strength of the planned economy in utilizing the resources of the USSR, the Russians, to the very surprise of the Allies, were not defeated, instead, they fought back hard pushing back the Nazis and then the Red Army was rolling through Europe. It was then seen to be a priority to more directly intervene before the Red Army took over all of Europe where the masses might just get radicalized by what they saw as liberation. I hope you don't mind me quoting a few stuff from this article but it's important to show strength of the planned economy in context of WW2. Mind you, Russia was more backwards in 1917 than India or Pakistan today, yet by WW2 was able to defeat the fucking Nazis!

http://www.marxist.com/seventy-years-si ... -nazis.htm

The truth is that the war against Hitler in Europe was fought mainly by the USSR and the Red Army. Following the invasion of the Soviet Union in the summer of 1941, Moscow repeatedly demanded the opening of a second front against Germany. But Churchill was in no hurry to oblige. The reason for this was not so much military as political. The policies and tactics of the British and American ruling class in the Second World War were not at all dictated by a love of democracy or hatred of fascism, as the official propaganda wants us to believe, but by class interests.

When Hitler invaded the USSR in 1941, the British ruling class calculated that the Soviet Union would be defeated by Germany, but that in the process Germany would be so enfeebled that it would be possible to step in and kill two birds with one stone. It is likely that the strategists in Washington were thinking on more or less similar lines.

However, from late 1943 it became clear to the Americans that the USSR was winning the war on the eastern front and if nothing was done, the Red Army would just roll through Europe.

The concerns of the imperialists were openly expressed in a meeting of the Joint British and American Chiefs of Staff that took place in Cairo on November 25, 1943. They noted that "the Russian campaign has succeeded beyond all hope and expectations [that is, the hopes of the Russians and the expectations of their "allies"] and their victorious advance continues." Yet Churchill continued to argue for a postponement of Operation Overlord.

The plans of both the British and US ruling circles were fundamentally flawed. Instead of being defeated by Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union fought back and inflicted a decisive defeat on Hitler's armies. The reason for this extraordinary victory can never be admitted by the defenders of capitalism, but it is a self-evident fact. The existence of a nationalised planned economy gave the USSR an enormous advantage in the war. Despite the criminal policies of Stalin, which nearly brought about the collapse of the USSR at the beginning of the war, the Soviet Union was able to swiftly recover and rebuild its industrial and military capacity.

In 1943 alone, the USSR produced 130,000 pieces of artillery, 24,000 tanks and self-propelled guns, 29,900 combat aircraft. The Nazis, with all the huge resources of Europe behind them, also stepped up production, turning out 73,000 pieces of artillery, 10,700 tanks and assault guns and 19,300 combat aircraft. (See V. Sipols, The Road to a Great Victory, p. 132.) These figures speak for themselves. The USSR, by mobilising the immense power of a planned economy, managed to out-produce and outgun the mighty Wehrmacht. That is the secret of its success.

Despite the monstrous crimes of Stalin and the Bureaucracy, the nationalized planned economy represented an enormous historic conquest. Compared with the barbarism of fascism – the distilled essence of imperialism and monopoly capitalism, these were things worth fighting and dying for. The working people of the USSR did both on the most appalling scale.

Hitler had also hugely miscalculated. Stalin had purged the Soviet army of some of its best commanding officers. Therefore Hitler believed this would be to his advantage and would allow him to sweep eastwards and in so doing he would be able to destroy the Soviet Union and its planned economy. But the planned economy, in spite of the bureaucracy, proved far more resilient. As we have seen, it was what gave the Soviet Union its strength and ability to fight back.

The Soviet Union’s great victories, and eventual smashing of Hitler’s once mighty war machine, despite all the mythology that was subsequently created about Stalin the “Great War Leader”, were in spite of Stalin and the bureaucracy. They had brought the Soviet Union to the very brink of catastrophe. Only the determination of the Soviet workers and soldiers to defend the USSR and the gains of the October Revolution and the striking superiority of the nationalized planned economy saved the day.

This is the strength of the planned economy, despite capitalist propaganda, a phenomenal achievement that was the only gain of the 1917 Russian Revolution that existed under the Stalinist totalitarian dictatorship in USSR (as noted in the other article on Bolshevik Revolution, Stalin, filling a niche, carried out the counter-revolution by the bureaucracy which rose due to objective conditions in Russia and hence had its own material interests to defend). Of course the planned economy did not utilize its full strength, it was under the control of the bureaucracy rather than the democratic control of the workers.

More shit.

Fuck you're full of it.

andyx1205 wrote:
You don't know my history on this forum. I would be as polite as possible in my political engagements only to get provoked and pulled into making a comment, and the mods would suspend me while not suspending others who made personal attacks against me. Threads were created by fellow forum members I keep in touch with but no longer post here in opposition to the mod decisions. There's a long history of mod abuse on this forum.

I wonder how much percentage of the posts in this thread are personal attacks against me and how many are actually related to the material in this thread.

You are right. I don't know your history on this forum. So I went back and re-read just this thread. The following comments by you caught my eye.

to be a Conservative one must be ignorant but to be a Liberal one must be deluded

You liberals, trying to find short-cuts. No realistic solutions. Take your imperial mentality and shove it up your ass.

Loren what the fuck are you smoking.

In a war against fascists you moralists would do more to support the fascists than support those fighting them.

Ah, Loren, you've really showed your liberal roots. Fuck the poor and poverty ridden masses of the world!

Stop smoking those drugs, you clearly cannot handle them.

This is Alan Woods at a recent talk at UCLU. As he says, those who become older usually become more stupid and apathetic in comparison to the youth who have a thirst for knowledge and science and ideas that are important in creating a better world

You see, some reactionary fascist bully boy mods might interpret these as personal attacks. And then there's the problem of the vast cut and paste text walls of political polemic. These are against the petty bourgeois FUA that has been foisted on the struggling proletariat by the capitalist running dogs who created this website and who pay for it. Until you can tear down this edifice of worldwide web oppression and replace it with Marxist collective information dissemination media, you are always going to run into problems. Death to the oppressors!

Facts are a bitch. Isn't that what Dawkins says to the creationists who deny what is true despite the evidence?

Damn, some of you are getting quite pissed off, perhaps it is because your whole worldview is being shattered by my simple citation of facts. You know, like that creationist that says: but the Bible says this! Similarly, many are mad because the ruling ideas of society do not agree with me! The religion of the current society, the ideas shoved down our throats by the ruling class, is being dismantled by facts! Oh dear!

It shows the strength of the planned economy, the USSR made historical achievements in industrialization and advancement in a very small timeframe. Just a little off-topic but this is related.

No it shows that a small number multiplied lots of times is often still a small number.

the strategy of Allies was to let the Nazis defeat the USSR

Really? The UK sending equipment to the Russians and being willing to lose so many on the Arctic convoys seems a weird way to go about letting someone be defeated.

The existence of a nationalised planned economy gave the USSR an enormous advantage in the war.

The USSR having vast vast numbers of soldiers and being willing to send them wave after wave against the Germans in inferior equipment to overwhelm the enemy gave the Russians an enormous advantage.

andyx1205 wrote:Facts are a bitch. Isn't that what Dawkins says to the creationists who deny what is true despite the evidence?

Dawkins is an effete product of the Imperial British ruling classes. He was born in Africa into a family of colonialists and spent his entire life in the privileged arms of English private schools and Oxford University. He is also immensely rich and privileged. I am shocked that a revolutionary as knowledgeable as yourself would hold him up as some kind of example. For shame.