One of the online news outlets is describing this incident as a turning point in our understanding of regional conflict, the advent of "not so asymmetrical" warfare. Made all the more problematic when an organisation thought of traditionally as an insurgency, is being armed by a state actor with weapons normally only accessible to states. Even older vintage SA-11 SAM systems would fall into that category, let alone the newer SA-17 variants with extended range and altitude performance. The newer SA-17s are very capable systems, with the ability to destroy targets ranging from helicopters flying NOE to supersonic bombers at 80,000 feet, but of course, sophisticated systems like this require a fair amount of training to use effectively. The question being asked is whether Russia is not only supplying the hardware, but the expertise, either through its own personnel or via training.

The insurgency in question has already demonstrated, on repeat occasions, the ability to shoot down a range of targets with MANPADS (and if the insurgents have access to Iglas, these are extremely capable, near state-of-the-art MANPAD systems), but deploying SA-17s would constitute a considerable escalation in capability.

To borrow the apocryphal Chinese curse, we are living in interesting times.

What would be the difference between Russia shooting down a plane, and Russia supplying the weapons and training to an "insurgency" to shoot down a plane?

The sad part is that the root cause of them being in the wrong place at the wrong time could be economic.
Malaysian Airlines has copped a hammering, and is not doing well financially. Most airlines...large, responsible ones with a good monetary base...have been avoiding the area like the plague. Look at the Flightradar type maps of where nearly all the planes are flying...it isn't over the top of a war zone. Malaysian Airlines apparently chose that route for two reasons: there's no official ban on flying over it, and it's far cheaper in fuel to go straight across instead of divert around it. Sad really.

You could hear it in the voices of the military people in that phone call which is apparently communication about what happened...they thought it was something else, and just fired off a missile. Happened before...Flight 007, the USS Vincennes incident, etc...and it will probably happen again.

Just saw this news online...
https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/24495309/did-igor-the-terrible-shoot-down-mh17/

Just moments later, he tweeted a number of boastful messages under the impression that he had shot down an Antonov-26 military plane from the Ukranian Air Force.
"In the area Torez we just hit down An-26, it’s lying somewhere in the mine “Progress”," he tweeted.
"We warned you – do not fly in “our sky”. And here is the video confirmation of the “bird dropping”.
"Bird fell near the mine, the residential sector was not disturbed. Civilians are not injured."

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", or, more simply put, "Cock up before conspiracy"...

Latest I heard was that there were about 100 HIV researchers going to a conference on that plane.

Yes, a bunch of scientists on their way to a big conference on AIDS here in Australia, as well as a lot of activists and supporters along with them. A terrible loss to the world of medical research as well as a human one.

Wait for the conspiracy theory that they were deliberately "got rid of" as they'd discovered a cure they were going to reveal at the conference...

Varangian wrote:

[Reveal] Spoiler: compressed

Imagination Theory wrote:

Varangian wrote:

Mike_L wrote:
Nope, not at all. Another casualty of Washington's regime-change fuckery.

Oh shut the fuck up, Putin-lover. Russia is supplying the separatists with tanks and missiles, and let them recruit volunteers in Russia. You commies nauseate me.

Russia isn't communist anymore. And neither is Putin. Russia is more capitalist than the UK, the US, and other parts of Europe. And hating "commies" is just stupid, oooh, scary assholes who adhere to a a different socioeconomic system than capitalism, oooh, quick, throw up. This is Russia fault, probably. I'm guessing more than likely with the limited information that we have. But why you are talking about commies, I do not know.

OK, the current trend among the nationalistic, autocratic, corrupt "elite" in Russia is more a hankering for Stalin's reign. That some people are more quick to shift blame to US and EU than the real perps, the separatists in Ukraine and their Russian backers is what infuriates me. And please, communism is/was more than "a different socioeconomic system". Ask anyone who was sent to the Gulag or to a mental hospital for not subscribing to the glorious idea of the dictatorship of workers and peasants.

Oh, god! This is about three decades out of date! It's like something from a 1980s anti-soviet movie... on VHS... running on an old VCR!

Varangian wrote:
That the Ukrainians wanted to turn to the West instead of Putin's rotten faux-empire wasn't appreciated in Moscow or among the pathologically anti-West clique which applauds anything as long it sticks it to the US and EU. Russia has actively destabilized Ukraine for over half a year now by enabling the "separatists". Tanks, missiles, weapons, mercenaries, volunteers and money have been supplied with the tacit approval, if not direct help, of Putin and his cronies.

I'd like to address these lopsided points, but not here. A reply would more suitably appear in the Ukraine thread. However, it'll have to wait for Saturday. It'll require no small amount of typing... and I have work deadlines to be met before end-Friday).

In the meantime...
The weight of evidence suggests that pro-Russian separatists are responsible for the outrageous downing of the Malaysian flight. And naturally the individuals involved should be held accountable. But to shift the blame onto Putin/Russia is to ignore a long sequence of events that led up to the outbreak of the Ukrainian conflict in the first place.

Mike_L wrote:

Varangian wrote:

[Reveal] Spoiler: compressed

Imagination Theory wrote:

Varangian wrote:
Oh shut the fuck up, Putin-lover. Russia is supplying the separatists with tanks and missiles, and let them recruit volunteers in Russia. You commies nauseate me.

Russia isn't communist anymore. And neither is Putin. Russia is more capitalist than the UK, the US, and other parts of Europe. And hating "commies" is just stupid, oooh, scary assholes who adhere to a a different socioeconomic system than capitalism, oooh, quick, throw up. This is Russia fault, probably. I'm guessing more than likely with the limited information that we have. But why you are talking about commies, I do not know.

OK, the current trend among the nationalistic, autocratic, corrupt "elite" in Russia is more a hankering for Stalin's reign. That some people are more quick to shift blame to US and EU than the real perps, the separatists in Ukraine and their Russian backers is what infuriates me. And please, communism is/was more than "a different socioeconomic system". Ask anyone who was sent to the Gulag or to a mental hospital for not subscribing to the glorious idea of the dictatorship of workers and peasants.

Oh, god! This is about three decades out of date! It's like something from a 1980s anti-soviet movie... on VHS... running on an old VCR!

I'm talkng about the people living under the old system. The cleptocracy they've got today works in different ways, but draconian prison sentences and assassinations of the few brave enough is obviously as effective in keeping people in line, as the mass deportations 60-80 years ago.

quisquose wrote:What would be the difference between Russia shooting down a plane, and Russia supplying the weapons and training to an "insurgency" to shoot down a plane?

Not a lot, assuming it was an accident. If it was deliberate then its the difference between terrorism and basically an act of war

I suspect the culprit is going to have an 'accident' ie the Russians will shoot him and blame the the Ukranians. No way are they ever going to allow him to stand trial

johnbrandt wrote:Yes, a bunch of scientists on their way to a big conference on AIDS here in Australia, as well as a lot of activists and supporters along with them. A terrible loss to the world of medical research as well as a human one.

Wait for the conspiracy theory that they were deliberately "got rid of" as they'd discovered a cure they were going to reveal at the conference...

You know, what really makes me sad is, how much time and effort does it take to make a PhD? They aren't exactly cheap, especially considering how few get to do it.

Maybe it's not quite The Bourne Polysyllable, but it's something pretty serious.

100 people is twice the entire research institute I worked at. That is something serious.

mrjonno wrote:

quisquose wrote:What would be the difference between Russia shooting down a plane, and Russia supplying the weapons and training to an "insurgency" to shoot down a plane?

Not a lot, assuming it was an accident. If it was deliberate then its the difference between terrorism and basically an act of war

I suspect the culprit is going to have an 'accident' ie the Russians will shoot him and blame the the Ukranians. No way are they ever going to allow him to stand trial

I'm reminded here of the old joke about what happened to the rival contestants for the leadership in the former USSR. The winner went on to become a pillar of the State, whilst the loser went on to become a pillar of a concrete bridge in Vitebsk.

Mike_L wrote:But to shift the blame onto Putin/Russia is to ignore a long sequence of events that led up to the outbreak of the Ukrainian conflict in the first place.

Yeah...no it's not.

Putin's been gleefully prodding the Ukraine with a stick since the beginning of this crisis - using Russian militias to de-stabilise Eastern Ukraine. Turns out that wasn't such a good idea after all...

epepke wrote:Latest I heard was that there were about 100 HIV researchers going to a conference on that plane.

How about the 158 Dutch mostly going on holiday.

Not mentioned on BBC. Only the 6 Brits.

Scot Dutchy wrote:

epepke wrote:Latest I heard was that there were about 100 HIV researchers going to a conference on that plane.

How about the 158 Dutch mostly going on holiday.

Not mentioned on BBC. Only the 6 Brits.

Actually the Beeb article says: "At least 173 people on board flight MH17 were from the Netherlands and at least 27 were from Australia, Malaysia Airlines has said.

edit: samea article: Latest figures released by Malaysia Airlines show the plane was carrying at least 173 Dutch nationals, 27 Australians, 44 Malaysians -including 15 crew - 12 Indonesians along with nine Britons.

Cthulhu's Trilby wrote:

Scot Dutchy wrote:

epepke wrote:Latest I heard was that there were about 100 HIV researchers going to a conference on that plane.

How about the 158 Dutch mostly going on holiday.

Not mentioned on BBC. Only the 6 Brits.

Actually the Beeb article says: "At least 173 people on board flight MH17 were from the Netherlands and at least 27 were from Australia, Malaysia Airlines has said.

edit: samea article: Latest figures released by Malaysia Airlines show the plane was carrying at least 173 Dutch nationals, 27 Australians, 44 Malaysians -including 15 crew - 12 Indonesians along with nine Britons.

Thanks for the update.

Mike_L wrote:

Weaver wrote:

Mike_L wrote:

CdesignProponentsist wrote:At best, Russia is responsible for this by intentionally escalating the conflict to this level.

...or Washington can take the blame for sparking the conflict in the first place.

Horseshit.

Nope, not at all. Another casualty of Washington's regime-change fuckery.

I blame Alex Jones. He's a lizard. The Queen told him to do it.

You want evidence? Look at this.



Illuminati!

Stay tuned for part 2. Were the Russian separatist soldiers USA puppets who parachuted out of MH370? The findings will open your mind. This is the post the mainstream media DOESNT WANT YOU TO SEE.

28 Australians reported dead so far.

Other Australian victims included a popular Perth sailor and his three young grandchildren on their way home from a European holiday.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/mh17-aus ... z37pHL7KKQ

The Dutch do not show pictures. I find that in very bad taste.

Impressive words from Tony Abbott today:

"[B]ased on what we're hearing from Russia, it's hard to have much confidence that there will be the kind of open and honest and transparent cooperation that you would expect, and this really is a test for Russia ... So far the signs are not especially promising, but if there is sufficient international pressure for a full and impartial inquiry, hopefully the Russians will realise that their whole standing in the world is at risk here."

Earlier on Friday Mr Abbott told Parliament: “The bullying of small countries by big ones, the trampling of justice and decency in the pursuit of national aggrandisement, and reckless indifference to human life should have no place in our world.”
“This is a grim day for our country and it’s a grim day for our world,’’ he said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... z37pInAQDb

Scot Dutchy wrote:The Dutch do not show pictures. I find that in very bad taste.

I find the killing of families with military hardware to be in much worse taste.