mrjonno wrote:How strange Ukraine wants to align itself with the richest trading group in the world not some christian fundie failed state like Russia.
It's obviously a conspiracy

The problem is that what the IMF does, is loan money, which goes to pay western banks, and does not get to the people.
Then they loot the country, taking their assets.
But the Ukraine will find this out soon enough.

Loren Michael wrote:

mrjonno wrote:Comparing the worst EU country for corruption compared to Russia is a joke, its basically a failed state kept together via military force

Also propaganda. The weird conspiracies about 777 mostly exist in Russia and they're promoted by Russian media for example. A lot of Russians would be right to be mystified about international condemnation of Russia following that plane's being shot down, assuming they don't consume a diverse selection of news media.

There is no "weird conspiracy" about it.
1.The plane was shot down by a BUK apprently.
2.Kiev is the only player who we know had BUK's in that region.
3.The radar was deployed for these at that time.
4.They refuse to release any information from air traffic control to explain why the plane went so far of course and dropped to the altitude it did.
5.The USA who is Kiev's ally refuses to release the data they have which will clearly show who did it.

Obviously they would be the number one suspect. Except it bad manners to even suggest they might have done it

magikrooster wrote:

Loren Michael wrote:

mrjonno wrote:Comparing the worst EU country for corruption compared to Russia is a joke, its basically a failed state kept together via military force

Also propaganda. The weird conspiracies about 777 mostly exist in Russia and they're promoted by Russian media for example. A lot of Russians would be right to be mystified about international condemnation of Russia following that plane's being shot down, assuming they don't consume a diverse selection of news media.

There is no "weird conspiracy" about it.
1.The plane was shot down by a BUK apprently.
2.Kiev is the only player who we know had BUK's in that region.
3.The radar was deployed for these at that time.
4.They refuse to release any information from air traffic control to explain why the plane went so far of course and dropped to the altitude it did.
5.The USA who is Kiev's ally refuses to release the data they have which will clearly show who did it.

Obviously they would be the number one suspect. Except it bad manners to even suggest they might have done it

So on the one side we have a group that bragged about shooting down a plane and posting images on social media which look suspiciously similar to images which were of the 777 crash... it happened in territory we're pretty sure is controlled by separatists and there have been other planes shot down, furthermore these groups still have control over the region where the crash occurred and are blatantly interfering with the investigation.... and then we have the other side which is not releasing intelligence information to the public.

Yes, must be the one that is not releasing intelligence info. This is basically what your 'argument' boils down to... THEY WON'T RELEASE LIKELY TOP SECRET INFOS ERGO THEY DONE IT!

Not to mention the phone calls... and Alexander Khodakovsky himself saying that the separatists had such a weapon system given to them from Russia and that it had been returned to Russia. Later retracted.

Actually a lot of what the separatists have said and done, on record, has been retracted or later completely changed. Odd... since they didn't do it. Why don't they just say what actually went on on their end?

Ukraine to my knowledge has stuck to the same story: They didn't do it, likely it is Russia separatists.
USA to my knowledge has stuck to the same story: Likely Russian separatists... due to "the trajectory of the explosion" picked you up by their sensors suggesting the missile originated from separatists controlled area.

It's also pretty sketchy that Russia has denied supplying this and that weapons/training/personnel but there is A LOT of evidence to the contrary.

You're right though. It's completely not a conspiracy theory to toss all of this to the side and focus on the fact that intelligence data hasn't been released. Funny thing is, once this data is released (it likely will be at some point) that still won't be enough. I suppose since USA doesn't release intelligence information relating to top secret air base activities aliens must exist too.

Plus the pictures that popped up on social media from the rebel region that look an awful lot like weapons in question
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/103 ... K-missiles

and the video taken which looks an awful lot like the weapon in question now missing a missile being transferred back to Russia.
http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-l ... mh17/#3413

Acetone wrote:

magikrooster wrote:

Loren Michael wrote:

mrjonno wrote:Comparing the worst EU country for corruption compared to Russia is a joke, its basically a failed state kept together via military force

Also propaganda. The weird conspiracies about 777 mostly exist in Russia and they're promoted by Russian media for example. A lot of Russians would be right to be mystified about international condemnation of Russia following that plane's being shot down, assuming they don't consume a diverse selection of news media.

There is no "weird conspiracy" about it.
1.The plane was shot down by a BUK apprently.
2.Kiev is the only player who we know had BUK's in that region.
3.The radar was deployed for these at that time.
4.They refuse to release any information from air traffic control to explain why the plane went so far of course and dropped to the altitude it did.
5.The USA who is Kiev's ally refuses to release the data they have which will clearly show who did it.

Obviously they would be the number one suspect. Except it bad manners to even suggest they might have done it

So on the one side we have a group that bragged about shooting down a plane and posting images on social media which look suspiciously similar to images which were of the 777 crash

Bullshit,unless you have some evidence...

it happened in territory we're pretty sure is controlled by separatists

It fell in that territory, not happened.

and there have been other planes shot down,

No planes shot down using BUK's and from that height.

furthermore these groups still have control over the region where the crash occurred and are blatantly interfering with the investigation.... and then we have the other side which is not releasing intelligence information to the public.

They are not interferring any more than would be expected where a civil war is going on. And the the Dutch official praised them, in the way they handled the bodies.

All of your points come to nil. All of your points are from reading the press and believing what you read.

Acetone wrote:Not to mention the phone calls... and Alexander Khodakovsky himself saying that the separatists had such a weapon system given to them from Russia and that it had been returned to Russia. Later retracted.

He said no such thing. have you even listened to the original interview? Of course not, you are just spreading bullshit.

The "phone calls"? Are you referring to that ridiculous fake youtube video?

GT2211 wrote:
Plus the pictures that popped up on social media from the rebel region that look an awful lot like weapons in question
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/103 ... K-missiles
and the video taken which looks an awful lot like the weapon in question now missing a missile being transferred back to Russia.
http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-l ... mh17/#3413

Unfortunately you have no date on that photo. Why would you believe it is from July 2014? That is, assuming the photo is even genuine
And if the missile were transported back to Russia then why would the USA be saying they have no evidence of Russian involvement? obviously US intelligence who are desperate to involve Russia disagree with you

magikrooster wrote:

Loren Michael wrote:

mrjonno wrote:Comparing the worst EU country for corruption compared to Russia is a joke, its basically a failed state kept together via military force

Also propaganda. The weird conspiracies about 777 mostly exist in Russia and they're promoted by Russian media for example. A lot of Russians would be right to be mystified about international condemnation of Russia following that plane's being shot down, assuming they don't consume a diverse selection of news media.

There is no "weird conspiracy" about it.
1.The plane was shot down by a BUK apprently.
2.Kiev is the only player who we know had BUK's in that region.

Posted earlier in the thread:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/ ... V920140723

"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.

That's Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion. He's a senior rebel leader. There's also all that photo and social media evidence.

This is why it's so easy to make fun of the position you're clinging to. You're ignoring photos, bragging on the part of rebels, and poorly made excuses that reveal the BUK's presence, and choosing to believe the worst about a handful of unknown factors.

You are espousing the platonic ideal of a "weird conspiracy".

magikrooster is a skeptic. Nothing rational to it, though. His postings here are always on the same theme, which is "don't believe anything any authority says, always assume that some anonymous poster on a conspiracy site is right".

magikrooster wrote:

GT2211 wrote:
Plus the pictures that popped up on social media from the rebel region that look an awful lot like weapons in question
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/103 ... K-missiles
and the video taken which looks an awful lot like the weapon in question now missing a missile being transferred back to Russia.
http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-l ... mh17/#3413

Unfortunately you have no date on that photo. Why would you believe it is from July 2014? That is, assuming the photo is even genuine

Why assume they're lying? They have motive and a way to access it (Russian material support). You're "supporting" your presumption by denying lots of positive and overlapping evidence and inserting your own assumptions about unknown factors.

Why not just be reasonably skeptical about positive evidence and assume nothing about unknowns?

Loren Michael wrote:

magikrooster wrote:

Loren Michael wrote:

mrjonno wrote:Comparing the worst EU country for corruption compared to Russia is a joke, its basically a failed state kept together via military force

Also propaganda. The weird conspiracies about 777 mostly exist in Russia and they're promoted by Russian media for example. A lot of Russians would be right to be mystified about international condemnation of Russia following that plane's being shot down, assuming they don't consume a diverse selection of news media.

There is no "weird conspiracy" about it.
1.The plane was shot down by a BUK apprently.
2.Kiev is the only player who we know had BUK's in that region.

Posted earlier in the thread:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/ ... V920140723

"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.

That's Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion. He's a senior rebel leader. There's also all that photo and social media evidence.

This is why it's so easy to make fun of the position you're clinging to. You're ignoring photos, bragging on the part of rebels, and poorly made excuses that reveal the BUK's presence, and choosing to believe the worst about a handful of unknown factors.

No it's not. Have you listened to the original interview? No you have not.
He said that he did not say that and the proof is in the recording of the interview.

So why are you not checking the actual interview?. Are you deliberately spreading bullshit?

Loren Michael wrote:

Why assume they're lying?

If you want to use it as "proof" of something then you need to verify it.

Here is what Alexander Khodakovskiy said

News Anchor: Alexander Sergeevich, this is very important – you see, in the same interview it says that some other militias received this “BUK” complex. Do you know anything about this, in principle, or not?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: No, I do not know. In response to a question like this from the reporter, I challenged him to provide evidence, because our area is tightly monitored by all means possible, including also satellite imagery. So, please – “BUK” is a fairly large unit, and it can be easily detected from any type of photography – so, please, show your evidence, and we will then have to respond in accordance with its weight.

News Anchor: Once more, I would like to confirm it with you, so you can say it during our live broadcast – does the Militia currently have “BUK” or not?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: I am telling you absolutely – after we analyzed the entire situation and took inventory of the equipment in our arsenal – I can tell you with full authority that the Militia has no “BUKs”. MANPADS – yes, those we do have. But their upper ceiling is no more than …

News Anchor: … You do not now and never had any?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: We do not now and never had any.

Varangian wrote:magikrooster is a skeptic. Nothing rational to it, though. His postings here are always on the same theme, which is "don't believe anything any authority says, always assume that some anonymous poster on a conspiracy site is right".

I don't know about contributions on other subjects, but it looks like some weird anti-occidental apologism.

magikrooster wrote:

Loren Michael wrote:

Why assume they're lying?

If you want to use it as "proof" of something then you need to verify it.

It's evidence. Corroborated with other evidence. Unless you have some evidence that weakens it that's all that needs to be said. "Proof" is your own word in your own quotes.

magikrooster wrote:Here is what Alexander Khodakovskiy said

News Anchor: Alexander Sergeevich, this is very important – you see, in the same interview it says that some other militias received this “BUK” complex. Do you know anything about this, in principle, or not?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: No, I do not know. In response to a question like this from the reporter, I challenged him to provide evidence, because our area is tightly monitored by all means possible, including also satellite imagery. So, please – “BUK” is a fairly large unit, and it can be easily detected from any type of photography – so, please, show your evidence, and we will then have to respond in accordance with its weight.

News Anchor: Once more, I would like to confirm it with you, so you can say it during our live broadcast – does the Militia currently have “BUK” or not?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: I am telling you absolutely – after we analyzed the entire situation and took inventory of the equipment in our arsenal – I can tell you with full authority that the Militia has no “BUKs”. MANPADS – yes, those we do have. But their upper ceiling is no more than …

News Anchor: … You do not now and never had any?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: We do not now and never had any.

Source?

magikrooster wrote:Here is what Alexander Khodakovskiy said

News Anchor: Alexander Sergeevich, this is very important – you see, in the same interview it says that some other militias received this “BUK” complex. Do you know anything about this, in principle, or not?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: No, I do not know. In response to a question like this from the reporter, I challenged him to provide evidence, because our area is tightly monitored by all means possible, including also satellite imagery. So, please – “BUK” is a fairly large unit, and it can be easily detected from any type of photography – so, please, show your evidence, and we will then have to respond in accordance with its weight.

News Anchor: Once more, I would like to confirm it with you, so you can say it during our live broadcast – does the Militia currently have “BUK” or not?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: I am telling you absolutely – after we analyzed the entire situation and took inventory of the equipment in our arsenal – I can tell you with full authority that the Militia has no “BUKs”. MANPADS – yes, those we do have. But their upper ceiling is no more than …

News Anchor: … You do not now and never had any?

Alexander Khodakovskiy: We do not now and never had any.

That's from another interview after the initial one was aired.

Given that his comments in the initial interview were really dumb I can see why he'd want to walk his comments back, but "person goes off-message, attempts to retract" is a pretty common thing. It weakens the initial statement but it's not proof that he never said what Reuters said he said until the actual recording is produced.

What he initially reportedly said is supported by a lot of other bits of evidence.

magikrooster, do you speak Russian. If not, how can you be sure the translation is correct? If the source is Russian Times, how can you be sure the interview isn't what Kremlin wants you to believe?

Varangian wrote:magikrooster is a skeptic. Nothing rational to it, though. His postings here are always on the same theme, which is "don't believe anything any authority says, always assume that some anonymous poster on a conspiracy site is right".

I wonder how conspiracists cope with this behaviour in day to day life.

"Darling we need to talk about our daughter. I've just been reading her school report and it seems like she's really struggling at school."
"Rubbish, don't believe it, she's a genius".