Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#361  Postby magikrooster » Jul 28, 2014 11:14 am

mrjonno wrote:
Now you are getting the idea. You are a genuine neoconservative.
But let me ask you a question . Does this only apply to Russia...or should everyone's influence end at it's own border?


If elected governments want to allow outside influences (or in the case of Ukraine want to join the EU) then that's fine by me
Please, don't play dumb.

What about elected governments that get ousted in coups which are supported by other countries? Should America have been involved in the coup that ousted a democratically elected leader in Kiev, this year?
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#362  Postby mrjonno » Jul 28, 2014 11:21 am

What about elected governments that get ousted in coups which are supported by other countries? Should America have been involved in the coup that ousted a democratically elected leader in Kiev, this year?


Nothing to do with the 3/4 of the country that isn't Russian speaking marching to remove it
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#363  Postby Cthulhu's Trilby » Jul 28, 2014 1:24 pm

magikrooster wrote:Should America have been involved in the coup that ousted a democratically elected leader in Kiev, this year?


Out of curiousity, in what way was the US involved? I recall John Kerry saying "we" were all behind the Maidan protesters, but if I was them I'd be feeling pretty aggrieved at the amount of support I actually got...
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#364  Postby Agi Hammerthief » Jul 28, 2014 1:28 pm

follow the white rabit red herring
* my (modified) emphasis ( or 'interpretation' )
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#365  Postby Mike_L » Jul 28, 2014 1:54 pm

Cthulhu's Trilby wrote:
magikrooster wrote:Should America have been involved in the coup that ousted a democratically elected leader in Kiev, this year?


Out of curiousity, in what way was the US involved?

Very intimately.
See here.
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#366  Postby mrjonno » Jul 28, 2014 2:02 pm

How strange Ukraine wants to align itself with the richest trading group in the world not some christian fundie failed state like Russia.

It's obviously a conspiracy
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#367  Postby Weaver » Jul 28, 2014 2:34 pm

Imagination Theory wrote:the US and Russia going to war is really stupid for both sides.

Which is why it isn't going to happen, despite the ongoing delusions of conspiracy theorists.
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#368  Postby theropod » Jul 28, 2014 2:39 pm

The "Cold War" may be over, but the doctrine of MAD is still in full effect.

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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#369  Postby Cthulhu's Trilby » Jul 28, 2014 3:09 pm

Mike_L wrote:
Cthulhu's Trilby wrote:
magikrooster wrote:Should America have been involved in the coup that ousted a democratically elected leader in Kiev, this year?


Out of curiousity, in what way was the US involved?

Very intimately.
See here.


Training activists? The Cold War seems a long way away now...
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#370  Postby Weaver » Jul 28, 2014 3:12 pm

magikrooster wrote:
mrjonno wrote:Let's face it Russia is going to end up joining the EU whether that happens in 5 or 30 years its pretty inevitable . Alone Russia is basically insignificant on the world stage (just like the UK). Putin knows this unfortunately the Russian people are a bit ignorant on this fact
Try telling Europe, who needs their gas, that Russia is insignificant. Economically Europe is in a busload of trouble trying desperately to stop it's banks from failing. Just look at the extraordinary lengths they have gone to to hold it together.

Yeah, whatever.

Russia has an economy equivalent to that of Italy - they are not a world powerhouse which must be coddled.

Stocks of oil and gas don't make them irreplaceable.
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#371  Postby mrjonno » Jul 28, 2014 3:31 pm

Russia has an economy equivalent to that of Italy - they are not a world powerhouse which must be coddled.

Stocks of oil and gas don't make them irreplaceable.


Considering the state of Russia if those resources aren't replaceable then Russia has a lot bigger problems than Ukraine. It would be regime change in Russia that the west would be working on not oil free Ukraine
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#372  Postby Varangian » Jul 28, 2014 3:31 pm

The fact is that several European countries are looking for other sources of gas. Being dependent on the good graces of the new czar in Kremlin has proven to be troublesome. Not that I could've told them that ten years ago...
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#373  Postby Mike_L » Jul 28, 2014 4:19 pm

mrjonno wrote:How strange Ukraine wants to align itself with the richest trading group in the world not some christian fundie failed state like Russia.

It's obviously a conspiracy

Viktor Yanukovich saw "the writing on the wall". Contrary to absurd claims made in this and the main Ukraine thread, Yanukovich wasn't motivated by a desire to be part of a grand Russian empire-cum-neotheocracy. He was motivated by pragmatism...

Wikipedia
...Yanukovych sought to establish closer relations with the European Union (EU) and Russia in order to attract the capital necessary to maintain Ukraine's standard of living without affecting the local population significantly. One of these measures was an association agreement with the European Union which would provide Ukraine with funds contingent to several reforms in almost all aspects of Ukrainian society and break its economic ties with Russia. Yanukovych, at first, considered the contingencies to be fair but ultimately refused to sign the agreement considering it too austere and detrimental to Ukraine.


Simply put, Yanukovich didn't want Ukraine subjected to Greek-style austerity. But after he was ousted, that's what Ukraine is now getting...
With the IMF’s $14 billion arrangement with Ukraine, Yats has effectively moved his country westward, farther away from Moscow and much closer to Athens.

One doesn't need to go trawling through the pages of "loony-left" (or "loony-right") conspiracy-theory websites in order to make such claims. That quote is from an article on the Forbes website...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2014/03/28/ukraine-welcomes-imf-austerity-regime/

More from that article...

How bad can it be?

While the IMF’s board must still agree to the loan, Kiev’s interim government will need to solidify its end of the bargain by committing to certain prior actions to receive the first installment by April. In other words, the quid pro quo of austerity-for-aid is at the heart of Ukraine’s bailout program, and it promises to devastate Ukrainian living standards, according to the take by analyst Vlad Signorelli of Bretton Woods Research in Mt. Tabor, New Jersey.

Among some of the details coming to light are a 47% to 66% increase in personal income tax rates; a 50% increase in monthly gas bills; a 40% increase on gas tariffs for heating companies; and an increase in taxes on agribusiness. In addition, while some at the IMF have speculated the currency’s devaluation against the dollar year-to-date (35+%) is enough to satisfy the fund’s penchant for ‘correcting imbalances,’ others are maintaining the currency needs to get even weaker.


“The preconditions of the IMF’s stand-by agreement appear to have yoked the new government to an austerian death march,” Signorelli said. “At the least, we hope a forthcoming European agreement might facilitate Ukrainian emigration to Western Europe to keep this geopolitical pressure cooker from exploding.”

A handful of American congressman seem willing to turn up the heat.

Most of them are staunchly anti-Russian, including Senators John McCain and Ted Cruz, both Republicans that have visited Ukraine and are strong Yatsenyuk allies in Washington.

Is it any wonder that Yanukovich sought to maintain the status quo with Russia rather than move closer to the EU?

Anyway, thanks to the Maidan mob, crushing austerity is now what Ukraine is facing under the guiding hand of chocolate czar and Washington insider Petro Poroshenko.

So it's another win for the moneygrubbing global elites. Victoria Nuland's oh-so-eloquent "Fuck the EU!" should actually have been: "Fuck the EU and Ukraine!"
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#374  Postby Varangian » Jul 28, 2014 4:32 pm

It's no secret that Ukraine's economy is hampered by corruption and cronyism. To have closer ties with EU, Ukraine will need to clean up. Yanukovich doubtlessly saw that the status quo guaranteed by the corrupt system in Russia was a safer bet for him and his backers. If he had stayed in power, Ukraine would probably been even worse off in the long run, resembling not so much Greece as Byelorussia. Ukraine has few choices, none of them attractive in the short term, but the chances are better westwards than being the lapdog of Kremlin.
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#375  Postby Mike_L » Jul 28, 2014 4:46 pm

Varangian wrote:It's no secret that Ukraine's economy is hampered by corruption and cronyism. To have closer ties with EU, Ukraine will need to clean up. Yanukovich doubtlessly saw that the status quo guaranteed by the corrupt system in Russia was a safer bet for him and his backers. If he had stayed in power, Ukraine would probably been even worse off in the long run, resembling not so much Greece as Byelorussia. Ukraine has few choices, none of them attractive in the short term, but the chances are better westwards than being the lapdog of Kremlin.

Fair enough. That may well be... or not. However, such conjecture is now eclipsed by the far bigger problem of civil war and, wider still, a regional instability. And, as I pointed out in this post it might all have been avoided. That's why ochlocracy (Maidan style) is a poor substitute for democracy.
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#376  Postby mrjonno » Jul 28, 2014 4:48 pm

Comparing the worst EU country for corruption compared to Russia is a joke, its basically a failed state kept together via military force
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#377  Postby Mike_L » Jul 28, 2014 4:56 pm

mrjonno wrote:Comparing the worst EU country for corruption compared to Russia is a joke, its basically a failed state kept together via military force

The Russian citizenry is in the grip of martial law? :scratch:
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#378  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 28, 2014 6:16 pm

mrjonno wrote:Comparing the worst EU country for corruption compared to Russia is a joke, its basically a failed state kept together via military force


The Russians cannot even perceive what democracy is. The have always been ruled by a strong leader and his hangers on.
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#379  Postby james1v » Jul 28, 2014 6:21 pm

Mike_L wrote:
mrjonno wrote:Comparing the worst EU country for corruption compared to Russia is a joke, its basically a failed state kept together via military force

The Russian citizenry is in the grip of martial law? :scratch:



Its a dictatorship.
"When humans yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon". Thomas Paine.
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Re: Malaysian 777 Crashes near Ukraine Russian border

#380  Postby Loren Michael » Jul 28, 2014 6:26 pm

mrjonno wrote:Comparing the worst EU country for corruption compared to Russia is a joke, its basically a failed state kept together via military force


Also propaganda. The weird conspiracies about 777 mostly exist in Russia and they're promoted by Russian media for example. A lot of Russians would be right to be mystified about international condemnation of Russia following that plane's being shot down, assuming they don't consume a diverse selection of news media.
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