Ongoing interventions in Syria.

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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#201  Postby ronmcd » Apr 23, 2018 4:49 pm

Mike_L wrote:
ronmcd wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
No, we can't know for certain how it would've turned out. What we do know is that it was never given a chance.
(This Huffington Post article gives the details).

The article certainly gives one man's opinion on the events. He might be right, he might be wrong. :dunno:

Yes, no way of knowing how it would've or could've worked out. If the chance was small, Hillary made sure to reduce it to nil.

No, I'm saying his claims about Hilary and US being the ones preventing a deal, could be wrong.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#202  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Apr 23, 2018 4:51 pm

Mike_L wrote:
Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
Why should only one side be held accountable for war crimes?


Nobody is saying only side should be held accountable, everybody should be held accountable.

Pie in the sky! Bush, Cheney, Blair et al have not been held accountable for their war crimes against Iraq. Hillary, Cameron, Sarkozy et al have not been held accountable for their war crimes against Libya. And it's precisely because "the West" keeps getting away with it that they keep throwing "crappy little countries" against the wall.

But again you're claiming Russia is principled. How do Russia's war crimes agree with their principles?

The principle of intervening to save an ally. The principle of opposing a rampant warmonger.


I don't think a lot of people here would disagree that the Western way of interventionism is deeply flawed and needs to change. The worst thing happening right now I think is Yemen where war that is Saudi lead but supported by the West (or the US at least) is causing a terrible famine.

But still, in Syria Russia is supporting a brutal dictator by bombing innocent people. Those principles of Russia are no good. Assad is a monster and ideally the world needs to work together to get Syrians better leadership.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#203  Postby Mike_L » Apr 23, 2018 4:58 pm

Sachs' claims are seconded in this article in The Guardian, citing Finland's Martti Ahtisaari...
Russia proposed more than three years ago that Syria’s president, Bashar al-Assad, could step down as part of a peace deal, according to a senior negotiator involved in back-channel discussions at the time.

Former Finnish president and Nobel peace prize laureate Martti Ahtisaari said western powers failed to seize on the proposal. Since it was made, in 2012, tens of thousands of people have been killed and millions uprooted, causing the world’s gravest refugee crisis since the second world war.
...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/15/west-ignored-russian-offer-in-2012-to-have-syrias-assad-step-aside

We can never know, but it looks like a chance (however small) thrown to the wind.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#204  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 23, 2018 5:06 pm

If the Americans would be prepared to talk. It seems impossible for them.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#205  Postby Mike_L » Apr 23, 2018 5:13 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler: compressed
Mike_L wrote:
Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Mike_L wrote:
Why should only one side be held accountable for war crimes?


Nobody is saying only side should be held accountable, everybody should be held accountable.

Pie in the sky! Bush, Cheney, Blair et al have not been held accountable for their war crimes against Iraq. Hillary, Cameron, Sarkozy et al have not been held accountable for their war crimes against Libya. And it's precisely because "the West" keeps getting away with it that they keep throwing "crappy little countries" against the wall.

But again you're claiming Russia is principled. How do Russia's war crimes agree with their principles?

The principle of intervening to save an ally. The principle of opposing a rampant warmonger.


I don't think a lot of people here would disagree that the Western way of interventionism is deeply flawed and needs to change. The worst thing happening right now I think is Yemen where war that is Saudi lead but supported by the West (or the US at least) is causing a terrible famine.

But still, in Syria Russia is supporting a brutal dictator by bombing innocent people. Those principles of Russia are no good. Assad is a monster and ideally the world needs to work together to get Syrians better leadership.

I agree with much of what you say.
Russia was (and still is) in a position of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". To abandon its Damascus ally would've been to encourage Washington to lay waste to Syria and march on to Tehran. And for Russia to involve itself in the Syrian war was to open itself to allegations of war crimes, something made almost inevitable by the craven tactics of the Washington-backed 'rebels'.
Ultimately, Putin's decision was a principled one for what was (from a moral viewpoint) a no-win scenario.
I expect you'll never agree with me. But, well, there it is. ;)
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#206  Postby Mike_L » Apr 23, 2018 5:19 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:If the Americans would be prepared to talk. It seems impossible for them.

Unfortunately, they have an agenda (revealed in this two-minute YouTube video), and they're hell-bent on following it through.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#207  Postby Sendraks » Apr 23, 2018 5:26 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:America is a continuous regime. Far from democratic and imposing its will on all and sundry.


No. Factually it is not. You're engaging in reality denial.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#208  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 23, 2018 5:30 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:America is a continuous regime. Far from democratic and imposing its will on all and sundry.


No. Factually it is not. You're engaging in reality denial.


It just changes leader not democratically. What difference does that make. It is the same corrupt system it always was from day one.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#209  Postby Sendraks » Apr 23, 2018 5:32 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:It just changes leader not democratically. What difference does that make. It is the same corrupt system it always was from day one.


Yes, yes, because you say so.

Different leaders = different political regimes. At least, that's how it works in the real world.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#210  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 23, 2018 5:35 pm

Sendraks wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:It just changes leader not democratically. What difference does that make. It is the same corrupt system it always was from day one.


Yes, yes, because you say so.

Different leaders = different political regimes. At least, that's how it works in the real world.


How different have they been then in your opinion? Looking at that list of interventions not much.
United States involvement in regime change
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#211  Postby Sendraks » Apr 23, 2018 5:44 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
How different have they been then in your opinion?


How have all the different political regimes of the USA been different? Wow, that's a helluva of task right there. I mean there have been 45 Presidents to date. That's a lot of policies to go through and that's going to take a lot of work.

Because, as always, I'd rather base what I say here on what is factually supported. Which you of course will dismiss is as being "in my opinion" because you don't know how to differentiate between "just opinion" and "opinion based on fact."

Scot Dutchy wrote:Looking at that list of interventions not much.
United States involvement in regime change


One could say much the same about Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_measures#Installing_and_undermining_governments
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#212  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Apr 23, 2018 7:27 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:America is a continuous regime. Far from democratic and imposing its will on all and sundry.


Do you think there are any democracies in the world? Are the Netherlands democratic?

It is Putin's goal to convince his own people democracy doesn't work and it doesn't really exist, that it is a fake facade, and that people are better off with an autocratic leader. With his foreign propaganda there is a danger international audiences start believing this too.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#213  Postby Mike_L » Apr 23, 2018 7:38 pm

Image

:teef:

:leaving:
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#214  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Apr 23, 2018 9:49 pm

I have to defend democracy now?

I don't know why it is a "dangerous idea". It's less dangerous than a system where one guy can grab power and rule without having to answer to the will of the people. I doubt people in democracies are generally "indoctrinated", certainly they are less so than in an illiberal democracy like Russia or a non-democracy like Syria or China or Saudi Arabia.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#215  Postby fisherman » Apr 23, 2018 10:13 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:I have to defend democracy now?

I don't know why it is a "dangerous idea". It's less dangerous than a system where one guy can grab power and rule without having to answer to the will of the people. I doubt people in democracies are generally "indoctrinated", certainly they are less so than in an illiberal democracy like Russia or a non-democracy like Syria or China or Saudi Arabia.


Also, when we talk of democracy, it is I think a shorthand hand for something more that just the election of leaders. Another characteristic shared by democracies, is a higher level of adherence to the rule of law, and consequently higher levels of social justice. This results in less corruption than that found in autocracies, and indeed, the deeper the corruption, the greater the base desire for change. Certainly this was evident within Syria, and likely within each of the states that sought revolution in the Arab Spring.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#216  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Apr 23, 2018 11:04 pm

I think without democracy as a mechanism to put someone in power what it gets down to is just a power struggle. So for instance the "legitimate" Baath regime in Syria got power by a bloody coup. Putin was elected, but he maintains power by discrediting, jailing and killing opposition. It's all just about who's the strongest and most ruthless.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#217  Postby fisherman » Apr 24, 2018 12:55 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:I think without democracy as a mechanism to put someone in power what it gets down to is just a power struggle. So for instance the "legitimate" Baath regime in Syria got power by a bloody coup.


True, though, prescribed democracy, supported by the west via state aid, IMF, NGO's etc. (is that what we are talking about?) has a litany of failures to suggest that that approach is seriously flawed.

An interesting report I read recently suggested aid to develop democracy in "fragile states" should, in the first place, be supporting long term national governments to allow stability to take hold. The idea (if I understand it correctly) being to avoid the mistakes of the past, whereby after the old system has collapsed, there is a rush to hold elections. These elections, do by definition, create democratic political divisions (via duopoly or multiparty system), which inadvertently replaces the old autocratic divisions, and are themselves a form if instability, that, inevitably, lead to the reimposition of a dictatorial regime by the successful "democrat".

It's an interesting take I think.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#218  Postby Scot Dutchy » Apr 24, 2018 8:46 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:Are the Netherlands democratic?


No? We have pure PR or did you not notice when we voted a few weeks ago. Every vote is equal in weight. Which system is more democratic? We dont have gerrymandering because we have no constituencies. You can vote anywhere you want to. Everyone who is a legal citizen gets the right to vote.
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#219  Postby Mike_L » Apr 24, 2018 9:21 am

Syrians support Assad, but BBC won't report it, British baroness tells RT after fact-finding trip

24 Apr, 2018

Most Syrians support their president and military, but the BBC presents Britons with a different, one-sided story, a British baroness and member of the House of Lords told RT, after returning from a trip to the war-torn country.
Caroline Cox, a baroness and Life Peer in the House of Lords, recently returned from a tour of several Syrian cities, during which she spoke with a "wide range of people," including government officials, opposition leaders, artists, intellectuals, writers and ordinary Syrians walking in the park.

According to Baroness Cox, despite claims from western governments and media outlets, the vast majority of Syrians are thankful to President Bashar Assad and the Syrian and Russian militaries for fighting Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIL) and jihadist groups.

The Syrian people "are very grateful to the Syrian Army, to Assad and, I may say, for Russian help in getting rid of the terrorists. They are the perpetrators of the most appalling atrocities and killings."
However, British media like the BBC have done a poor job of accurately conveying this public attitude, Baroness Cox told RT.
...

Full article at:
https://www.rt.com/uk/424930-syrians-support-assad-bbc/
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Re: Ongoing interventions in Syria.

#220  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Apr 24, 2018 10:49 am

Syrians in government controlled areas say they support Assad? What a surprise. Maybe the baroness can tour North Korea next and ask if the Koreans are really unhappy or if they're grateful to Kim Jong Un for letting them live in paradise.
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