Terrible fire in West London

A number of fatalities confirmed

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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#41  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jun 14, 2017 4:50 pm

But this seems a disaster waiting to happen. Who is responsible for fire inspection; the fire service or local council?
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#42  Postby monkeyboy » Jun 14, 2017 4:56 pm

Sounds like a lot of austerity cuts might be a contributing factor. Lack of inspectors, lack of available fire service personnel to inspect and familiarise themselves with larger buildings.

Lots of different contractors carrying out installations, not fitting fire proofing between floors when running pipework, heating supply vents cabling etc.

Then there's the building, one set of stairs? No separate fire escape, internal or external. The fire brigade are supposed to tackle tower block fires by heading upstairs, plugging into the water main and coming at it from above and on the same level. Due to whatever set of circumstances conspired together, they could only tackle.it from street level and then water pressure is against you.

Someone somewhere is going to likely be jailed over this though. The fire procedure in these buildings is to stay put and and let the fire be put out if it's not in your immediate vicinity. The building is supposed to contain the fire. It shouldn't have spread unless it's left untended for literally hours. We've had determined arsonists try to set fires in our hospital buildings and the most they've managed to do is cause smoke damage to the odd bedroom and the corridor (most of which occurs when the fire brigade open the doors to put the fire out). Whatever the cause of the initial fire, it can only have spread like it did if the building wasn't up to standard. Unless someone was deliberately stoking it and fuelling it, which there has been no suggestion of at all.
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#43  Postby Calilasseia » Jun 14, 2017 5:06 pm

Oh dear, this is starting to look entirely predictable ...

Theresa May's chief of staff 'sat on' report warning high-rise blocks like Grenfell Tower were vulnerable to fire

A coroner's report into a previous fire recommended a review of building regulations four years ago. Successive ministers said they were "still looking at it."

Theresa May’s new chief of staff was one of a series of housing ministers who “sat on” a report warning high-rise blocks like Grenfell Tower were vulnerable to fire for four years.

A former Chief Fire Officer and secretary of a parliamentary group on fire safety today revealed successive ministers had had damning evidence on their desks since 2013 and nothing had happened.

And the Labour MP who chairs the group said ministers had “sat on” the recommendations for almost four years.

Gavin Barwell, who was housing minister until losing his seat in last week’s election, promised to review part B of the Building Regulations 2010, which relate to fire safety, but the review never materialised.

A coroner’s investigation into the blaze at Lakanal House in South London in 2009, which claimed six lives, found panels on the exterior of the block had not provided the required fire resistance and insufficient fire risk assessments had been made.

The coroner made a series of recommendation following the tragedy, but while some have been taken up, a full review of building regulations has yet to take place.


Tory minister warned against beefing up fire safety rules to include sprinklers because it could discourage house building

Former Housing Minister Brandon Lewis admitted fitting sprinklers saves lives, but said it was not the government's responsibility to insist on them

A former Tory housing minister warned MPs against beefing up fire safety regulations, because it could discourage house building.

Brandon Lewis admitted automatic sprinklers save lives, but said it was not the government's responsibility to encourage developers to fit them.

It was revealed this morning that successive ministers had "sat on" evidence that suggested thousands of tower blocks like London's Grenfell House were vulnerable to fire.

The coroner's report into a 2009 blaze in London recommended building regulations be updated, and called for developers refurbishing high-rise blocks to be encouraged to install sprinkler systems.

But five years later, Mr Lewis told MPs: "We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation."

He said the Tory government had committed to being the first to reduce regulations nationwide, pledging a one in-two out rule.

He added: "The cost of fitting a fire sprinkler system may affect house building—something we want to encourage—so we must wait to see what impact that regulation has."


Meanwhile, here's a scan of a threatening letter sent to someone blogging about the fire hazards in those tower blocks:

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The landlords responsible had already been issued two legal warnings about fire safety in the tower blocks that they managed

Jeremy Corbyn tried to add an amendment to housing legislation to make homes safer last year - the Tories filibustered it

Jeremy Corbyn tried to pass through a law that would required private landlords to make their homes safe and “fit for human habitation” last year – but it was rejected by the Conservatives.

Labour proposed an amendment to the Government’s new Housing and Planning Bill – a raft of new laws aimed at reforming housing law – in January last year, but it was rejected by 312 votes to 219.

According to Parliament’s register of interests, 72 of the MPs who voted against the amendment were themselves landlords who derive an income from a property.

The amendment will surely now be scrutinised after a London fire in the 27-storey residential Grenfell Tower in North Kensington claimed a number of lives and resulted in multiple casualties.

Residents had previously complained that only a catastrophic event would expose the ineptitude and incompetence of the landlord and “bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders”.

Teresa Pearce, the shadow housing minister who proposed the amendment in January 2016, said at the time that renters lacked “basic consumer protection” when things went wrong.

“The majority of landlords let property which is and remains in a decent standard. Many landlords go out of their way to ensure that even the slightest safety hazard is sorted quickly and efficiently,” she said.
“So it is even more distressing when we see reports of homes which are frankly unfit for human habitation being let, often at obscene prices.

“Where else in modern day life could someone get away with this? It’s a consumer issue. If I purchased a mobile phone or a computer that didn’t work, didn’t do what it said it would or was unsafe I would take it back and get a refund.”

The Government claimed the new law would result in “unnecessary regulation”.


An action group for Grenfell Tower claimed, before the fire, that the property was being managed by unscrupulous landlords milking the property for profit, describing them as a "mini Mafia"

Pages from the Grenfell Action Group blog include this one and this one.

Of course, the Tory Party voted against legislation in the past aimed at compelling landlords to make their properties fit for human habitation ... guess how many of the Tory MPs who voted against make their money as landlords? Here's a full list.

So now the Tory Party stands as visibly preferring to see the plebs burn to death, rather than constrain avaricious rentier profits.
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#44  Postby monkeyboy » Jun 14, 2017 5:09 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:But this seems a disaster waiting to happen. Who is responsible for fire inspection; the fire service or local council?

Sounds like a lot of what required statutory inspections is still lf regulatory these days and only randomly checked up on rather than universally. Cuts to council budgets, cuts to fire service budgets etc. Lack of recruitment, cuts in staff etc. You don't get more for less despite what this set of fucktards in government ask for from people. What you get is prioritising of budgets. This is what happens when cuts come home to roost.

But so long as the 1% get to keep making the money and we have enough cash to keep building aircraft (we have no aircraft for them) carriers, enough money to spend billions so that wankers can commute 200 miles to work 20 minutes faster, enough cash to waste billions cock waving nuclear subs around, and billions to spare to join in wars all over the place whilst we pretend we aren't just a small island at the edge of Europe.
I wonder how many buildings could have decent fire proofing and sprinkler systems installed for the cost of HS2.
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#45  Postby Byron » Jun 14, 2017 5:11 pm

monkeyboy wrote:[...] Someone somewhere is going to likely be jailed over this though. [...]

Possibly. Plenty will be looking for a scapegoat, but it's reported that the building and refurb were signed off by the relevant authorities. Manslaughter isn't easy to make out. The residents' association foresaw a disaster, but if people followed lethally flawed building regs, little can be done.

First priority's gotta be finding the cause and urgently inspecting similar buildings to prevent another disaster.
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#46  Postby Calilasseia » Jun 14, 2017 5:34 pm

Byron wrote:
monkeyboy wrote:[...] Someone somewhere is going to likely be jailed over this though. [...]

Possibly. Plenty will be looking for a scapegoat, but it's reported that the building and refurb were signed off by the relevant authorities. Manslaughter isn't easy to make out. The residents' association foresaw a disaster, but if people followed lethally flawed building regs, little can be done.

First priority's gotta be finding the cause and urgently inspecting similar buildings to prevent another disaster.


However, if the flawed building regulations were the product of Tory MPs protecting their rentier incomes at the expense of dead people, I'd suggest that there's grounds for a culpable homicide suit.

EDIT: given that the coroner in the Lakanal House fire inquiry published in 2013, issued a Rule 43 letter on the subject to then Communities Secretary Eric Pickles, a letter that is ONLY issued when the coroner has reasonable grounds to conclude that deaths will arise in future if action is not taken, there's plenty of scope here for criminal negligence charges to be brought.

If I, as a private individual, am subject to a warning that failure to act in a given manner will result in deaths, then fail to act to heed that warning, and said deaths result, I'm looking at soap on a rope in Strangeways. Worse still, if it is revealed further that I acted to try and prevent legislation pertinent to those warnings from being enacted, I'm doing extra prison time for corruption. The same should apply to the powerful, otherwise, the rule of law is rendered meaningless. It's that simple.
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#47  Postby Byron » Jun 14, 2017 5:53 pm

If it can possibly be made out (and there'll be Crown immunity and similar to get around), it should be. A wholly preventable tragedy that was foreseen, and should never have happened.
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#48  Postby Calilasseia » Jun 14, 2017 6:27 pm

If they try and hide behind Crown Immunity, instead of having the balls to face the consequences of their actions like mature adults, then I'll understand perfectly if those affected decide that a more ... robust approach is warranted. Holland in 1672 perchance?
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#49  Postby felltoearth » Jun 14, 2017 6:28 pm

These Socialists want your Freedoms! Like the freedom to die in a fiery blaze.
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#50  Postby Weaver » Jun 14, 2017 6:44 pm

What a horrible fire, for the victims and for the responders who simply could not do enough to be able to save them.
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#51  Postby Calilasseia » Jun 14, 2017 6:48 pm

Meanwhile, there's a report in the International Business Times, that the zinc cladding on the outside of the building, that is being investigated as a contributory factor in the unusually rapid spread of the blaze, was ordered so that rich people living in adjacent upmarket suburbs wouldn't have a plebeian eyesore to look at, and could continue living in their gilded bubbles blissfully unaware of the serfs in their midst.

Well, they've got one hell of an eyesore to look at now, haven't they?

Which they wouldn't have, if the £8.6 million blown on a cosmetic facade, had been spent on improving fire safety instead.
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#52  Postby ronmcd » Jun 14, 2017 7:07 pm

Calilasseia wrote:Meanwhile, there's a report in the International Business Times, that the zinc cladding on the outside of the building, that is being investigated as a contributory factor in the unusually rapid spread of the blaze, was ordered so that rich people living in adjacent upmarket suburbs wouldn't have a plebeian eyesore to look at, and could continue living in their gilded bubbles blissfully unaware of the serfs in their midst.

Well, they've got one hell of an eyesore to look at now, haven't they?

Which they wouldn't have, if the £8.6 million blown on a cosmetic facade, had been spent on improving fire safety instead.

AFAIK it's not even upmarket areas nearby, it's the same area, since it's mostly been de-poorified already so the rich can move in. And it continues apace, with each round of benefit cuts meaning more council and housing association tennants are shifted out to cheaper towns and cities.
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#53  Postby CarlPierce » Jun 14, 2017 7:20 pm

Calilasseia wrote:Oh dear, this is starting to look entirely predictable ...

Theresa May's chief of staff 'sat on' report warning high-rise blocks like Grenfell Tower were vulnerable to fire

A coroner's report into a previous fire recommended a review of building regulations four years ago. Successive ministers said they were "still looking at it."

Theresa May’s new chief of staff was one of a series of housing ministers who “sat on” a report warning high-rise blocks like Grenfell Tower were vulnerable to fire for four years.

A former Chief Fire Officer and secretary of a parliamentary group on fire safety today revealed successive ministers had had damning evidence on their desks since 2013 and nothing had happened.

And the Labour MP who chairs the group said ministers had “sat on” the recommendations for almost four years.

Gavin Barwell, who was housing minister until losing his seat in last week’s election, promised to review part B of the Building Regulations 2010, which relate to fire safety, but the review never materialised.

A coroner’s investigation into the blaze at Lakanal House in South London in 2009, which claimed six lives, found panels on the exterior of the block had not provided the required fire resistance and insufficient fire risk assessments had been made.

The coroner made a series of recommendation following the tragedy, but while some have been taken up, a full review of building regulations has yet to take place.


Tory minister warned against beefing up fire safety rules to include sprinklers because it could discourage house building

Former Housing Minister Brandon Lewis admitted fitting sprinklers saves lives, but said it was not the government's responsibility to insist on them

A former Tory housing minister warned MPs against beefing up fire safety regulations, because it could discourage house building.

Brandon Lewis admitted automatic sprinklers save lives, but said it was not the government's responsibility to encourage developers to fit them.

It was revealed this morning that successive ministers had "sat on" evidence that suggested thousands of tower blocks like London's Grenfell House were vulnerable to fire.

The coroner's report into a 2009 blaze in London recommended building regulations be updated, and called for developers refurbishing high-rise blocks to be encouraged to install sprinkler systems.

But five years later, Mr Lewis told MPs: "We believe that it is the responsibility of the fire industry, rather than the Government, to market fire sprinkler systems effectively and to encourage their wider installation."

He said the Tory government had committed to being the first to reduce regulations nationwide, pledging a one in-two out rule.

He added: "The cost of fitting a fire sprinkler system may affect house building—something we want to encourage—so we must wait to see what impact that regulation has."


Meanwhile, here's a scan of a threatening letter sent to someone blogging about the fire hazards in those tower blocks:

Image

The landlords responsible had already been issued two legal warnings about fire safety in the tower blocks that they managed

Jeremy Corbyn tried to add an amendment to housing legislation to make homes safer last year - the Tories filibustered it

Jeremy Corbyn tried to pass through a law that would required private landlords to make their homes safe and “fit for human habitation” last year – but it was rejected by the Conservatives.

Labour proposed an amendment to the Government’s new Housing and Planning Bill – a raft of new laws aimed at reforming housing law – in January last year, but it was rejected by 312 votes to 219.

According to Parliament’s register of interests, 72 of the MPs who voted against the amendment were themselves landlords who derive an income from a property.

The amendment will surely now be scrutinised after a London fire in the 27-storey residential Grenfell Tower in North Kensington claimed a number of lives and resulted in multiple casualties.

Residents had previously complained that only a catastrophic event would expose the ineptitude and incompetence of the landlord and “bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders”.

Teresa Pearce, the shadow housing minister who proposed the amendment in January 2016, said at the time that renters lacked “basic consumer protection” when things went wrong.

“The majority of landlords let property which is and remains in a decent standard. Many landlords go out of their way to ensure that even the slightest safety hazard is sorted quickly and efficiently,” she said.
“So it is even more distressing when we see reports of homes which are frankly unfit for human habitation being let, often at obscene prices.

“Where else in modern day life could someone get away with this? It’s a consumer issue. If I purchased a mobile phone or a computer that didn’t work, didn’t do what it said it would or was unsafe I would take it back and get a refund.”

The Government claimed the new law would result in “unnecessary regulation”.


An action group for Grenfell Tower claimed, before the fire, that the property was being managed by unscrupulous landlords milking the property for profit, describing them as a "mini Mafia"

Pages from the Grenfell Action Group blog include this one and this one.

Of course, the Tory Party voted against legislation in the past aimed at compelling landlords to make their properties fit for human habitation ... guess how many of the Tory MPs who voted against make their money as landlords? Here's a full list.

So now the Tory Party stands as visibly preferring to see the plebs burn to death, rather than constrain avaricious rentier profits.


Wonder if the Local Labour counsellors did anything? But yes sounds like the nasty party.
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#54  Postby I'm With Stupid » Jun 14, 2017 7:29 pm

Rumraket wrote:
Tzelemel wrote:Looks like the fire spread through recently added Aluminium Cladding

Wow, that page was taken down fast.

Page not found
The page you were trying to access either does not exist or has been moved.
Click here to return to the homepage.

The put a statement on their Facebook page.

Harley Facades Limited completed the refurbishment work to Grenfell Tower. This included the installation of exterior cladding. The Aluminium Composite Material (ACM) panels are a commonly used product in the refurbishment industry. Harley Facades Limited do not manufacture these panels.
Commenting on the fire, Ray Bailey, Managing Director at Harley Facades Limited said:
“This is an incredibly tragic incident. Our thoughts are with the residents and their families who have suffered such a personal loss. We will fully support and cooperate with the investigations into this fire. There will be many questions about this whole incident and so you will appreciate that it would not be appropriate for us to comment or for others to speculate on any aspect of fire or it causes in advance of these inquiries. At this time, we are not aware of any link between the fire and the exterior cladding to the tower.”
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#55  Postby ronmcd » Jun 14, 2017 9:07 pm

I'm With Stupid wrote:
Rumraket wrote:
Tzelemel wrote:Looks like the fire spread through recently added Aluminium Cladding

Wow, that page was taken down fast.

Page not found
The page you were trying to access either does not exist or has been moved.
Click here to return to the homepage.

The put a statement on their Facebook page.

Harley Facades Limited completed the refurbishment work to Grenfell Tower. This included the installation of exterior cladding. The Aluminium Composite Material (ACM) panels are a commonly used product in the refurbishment industry. Harley Facades Limited do not manufacture these panels.
Commenting on the fire, Ray Bailey, Managing Director at Harley Facades Limited said:
“This is an incredibly tragic incident. Our thoughts are with the residents and their families who have suffered such a personal loss. We will fully support and cooperate with the investigations into this fire. There will be many questions about this whole incident and so you will appreciate that it would not be appropriate for us to comment or for others to speculate on any aspect of fire or it causes in advance of these inquiries. At this time, we are not aware of any link between the fire and the exterior cladding to the tower.”

Ah yes, the cladding company are responsible, because other people have used this cladding system.

In my time, decades ago, involved in contractors bidding for jobs, the job was specified by an architect, engineer etc, bids approved meeting the specification etc. I wonder what the process is for this type of refurb job. Probably contractor design & build, to meet a cost.
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#56  Postby Macdoc » Jun 15, 2017 12:03 am

How pathetically inadequate this fire equipment looks in the face of that monster...

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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#57  Postby mcgruff » Jun 15, 2017 1:18 am

One lower corner of the building - where the remote control hose was - seemed to survive the fire and at least one man was rescued from here later on Wednesday. Given that the fire seemed to be spreading through the exterior cladding (at least at first) that one little hose might just have been enough to make a difference.

Quite a few people did manage to get out - maybe half? - but the final death toll will be well into three figures. There was a horrible moment last night watching the live news feed when we saw a fleet of 40-odd ambulances waiting in vain to pick up casualties which never came.

At least lessons will be learned - chiefly that polystyrene and plywood are extremely flammable. Who knew..?!
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#58  Postby minininja » Jun 15, 2017 8:24 am

Petition to parliament, please sign.

Introduce a new Fire Precautions Act to regulate buildings and hold developers to account.

In 1971, following several serious nightclub fires, the Fire Precautions Act was introduced, giving fire officers the legal right to assess any building for fire risk and safety. This allowed firefighters absolute and forensic familiarity with buildings on their grounds, both the structure and composition of them, and was designed to prevent shoddy workmanship putting people at risk.

This Act was abolished in the 1990s after landlords heavily lobbied MPs for their own power to decide what was safe and what wasn't.

This self-regulation does not work. Important planning documents have gone missing from Grenfell in the wake of an investigation. The cladding on the outside of the building seems to have been completely unfit for purpose. There were inadequate means of escape. People have lost their lives.

In order to prevent further tragedy, we need to hand back control of fire risk assessments to the people who run into those buildings to put them out. We owe it to our firefighters, our residents, and ourselves, to put this right, as quickly and effectively as possible.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#59  Postby Pulsar » Jun 15, 2017 11:25 am

When Bojo was questioned over the impact of his fire service cuts in 2013:

"The longer I live the more I see that I am never wrong about anything, and that all the pains that I have so humbly taken to verify my notions have only wasted my time." - George Bernard Shaw
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Re: Terrible fire in West London

#60  Postby felltoearth » Jun 15, 2017 12:51 pm

Holy crap, they scrapped fire inspections? Idiots.
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