The day Israel became a theocracy

willhud9 · **#81** by **willhud9** » Jul 25, 2018 10:09 pm

Yes, the nation's government has to have democratic elections. Saudia Arabia does not. It is an absolute monarchy.

Matt_B · **#82** by **Matt_B** » Jul 26, 2018 12:08 am

This discussion is bordering on the surreal. There are obviously problems with the state of democracy in Israel but its broadly comparable with those in other countries in the developed world and it seems utterly pointless to compare it with actual theocratic and undemocratic regimes.

For some more in depth and objective measures you could perhaps look at the reports from Freedom House and The Economist's Democracy Index; they both score it a pass, albeit with several caveats mostly relating to things like press freedom and civil rights. Nobody is seriously claiming that its elections are unfair, that its legislature holds no real power, and that its judiciary is unduly biased which are the issues with, well, pretty much everywhere else in the Middle East.

As ever, the real problem with Israel is its continued occupation of the West Bank and blockade of the Gaza Strip; that's what it deserves to be criticized for and why this new law is going to be a big problem because it will interfere with any attempts to resolve those issues downstream. People ranting about the country being theocratic and not a democracy are doing them a favour by drawing away from those facts.

felltoearth · **#83** by **felltoearth** » Jul 26, 2018 1:48 am

willhud9 wrote:Yes, the nation's government has to have democratic elections. Saudia Arabia does not. It is an absolute monarchy.

Oh nation's government now? Ok. What about Kuwait or Jordan?

felltoearth · **#84** by **felltoearth** » Jul 26, 2018 1:54 am

Matt_B wrote:This discussion is bordering on the surreal. There are obviously problems with the state of democracy in Israel but its broadly comparable with those in other countries in the developed world and it seems utterly pointless to compare it with actual theocratic and undemocratic regimes.

For some more in depth and objective measures you could perhaps look at the reports from Freedom House and The Economist's Democracy Index; they both score it a pass, albeit with several caveats mostly relating to things like press freedom and civil rights. Nobody is seriously claiming that its elections are unfair, that its legislature holds no real power, and that its judiciary is unduly biased which are the issues with, well, pretty much everywhere else in the Middle East.

As ever, the real problem with Israel is its continued occupation of the West Bank and blockade of the Gaza Strip; that's what it deserves to be criticized for and why this new law is going to be a big problem because it will interfere with any attempts to resolve those issues downstream. People ranting about the country being theocratic and not a democracy are doing them a favour by drawing away from those facts.

^this.

My main point was that having elections is a pretty silly criterion for deciding whether a country os democratic or not. There are many axes to democracy.

willhud9 · **#85** by **willhud9** » Jul 26, 2018 2:55 am

Matt_B wrote:This discussion is bordering on the surreal. There are obviously problems with the state of democracy in Israel but its broadly comparable with those in other countries in the developed world and it seems utterly pointless to compare it with actual theocratic and undemocratic regimes.

For some more in depth and objective measures you could perhaps look at the reports from Freedom House and The Economist's Democracy Index; they both score it a pass, albeit with several caveats mostly relating to things like press freedom and civil rights. Nobody is seriously claiming that its elections are unfair, that its legislature holds no real power, and that its judiciary is unduly biased which are the issues with, well, pretty much everywhere else in the Middle East.

As ever, the real problem with Israel is its continued occupation of the West Bank and blockade of the Gaza Strip; that's what it deserves to be criticized for and why this new law is going to be a big problem because it will interfere with any attempts to resolve those issues downstream. People ranting about the country being theocratic and not a democracy are doing them a favour by drawing away from those facts.

Quite correct.

And as I’ve said upthread there is a lot to fault Israel for. But by and by the quality of life there for a citizen, even a Palestinian citizen is really good.

Now the concern is that Palestinians residents in occupied territories are losing their residence status for arbitrary reasons and are being kicked out of East Jerusalem because of it. That’s a worrisome problem that needs to be addressed.

Hermit · **#86** by **Hermit** » Jul 26, 2018 3:53 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:There are plenty of countries that are true democracies but that does not include the USA or UK.

Spoken like a True Scotsman. :mrgreen:

Hermit · **#87** by **Hermit** » Jul 26, 2018 4:19 am

willhud9 wrote:Yes, the nation's government has to have democratic elections. Saudia Arabia does not. It is an absolute monarchy.

But

willhud9 wrote:...universal suffrage is not a requirement for a democracy. If the only eligible voters are white men. It still is a democracy. Universal suffrage is a relatively new political condition. Yet anyone who said a democracy HAS to include universal suffrage would be wrong.

In the 2015 Municipal Elections all Saudi men and women over the age of 21 were entitled to vote for men and women contesting two thirds of the municipal seats. Yeah, the Saudi king rules supreme, but I see not a great deal of difference between his rule and Trump's enthusiasm for ruling by Executive Order. He signed 77 of them between assuming office and June 2018.

Oldskeptic · **#88** by **Oldskeptic** » Jul 26, 2018 5:50 am

duplicate

Oldskeptic · **#89** by **Oldskeptic** » Jul 26, 2018 5:51 am

aban57 wrote:Last night, on a 62/55 voted they became a theocracy.

After a decade of political wrangling and hours of impassioned debate, Parliament on Thursday passed a contentious basic law that in effect enshrines Israel as the Jewish nation state, a move hailed by supporters as “historic” and denounced by detractors as discriminatory, racist and a blow to democracy.

And it only took the revealing of the obvious & 120 years of that being the point of reverse diaspora for you and the New York Times to catch on.

What actually changed?

Scot Dutchy · **#90** by **Scot Dutchy** » Jul 26, 2018 7:37 am

Hermit wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:There are plenty of countries that are true democracies but that does not include the USA or UK.

Spoken like a True Scotsman.

Are they democracies then? What qualifies them as such?

Sendraks · **#91** by **Sendraks** » Jul 26, 2018 8:04 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Are they democracies then? What qualifies them as such?

*sigh*
Both have democratic systems for elections. Yes, those electoral systems are flawed and are not as democratic or representative as other systems but, democracy is not a digital state.

There are no nations that presently operate their political systems on the basis of direct democracy.

Hermit · **#92** by **Hermit** » Jul 26, 2018 9:23 am

Sendraks wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Are they democracies then? What qualifies them as such?

*sigh*
Both have democratic systems for elections. Yes, those electoral systems are flawed and are not as democratic or representative as other systems but, democracy is not a digital state.

There are no nations that presently operate their political systems on the basis of direct democracy.

Switzerland comes the closest. It has several referendums every year, and most of them are about more than one issue. Between January 1995 and June 2005, Swiss citizens voted 31 times, to answer 103 questions. Referendums can be used to challenge any law approved by the parliament or, at any time, propose a modification of the federal Constitution.

On the other hand, Switzerland did not introduce universal suffrage until relatively recently. Women were not enfranchised on the federal level until 1971 and the last canton to allow women to vote on a state level was Appenzell Innerrhoden in 1991.

I don't regard Israel any more theocratic after passing the than before the Nation-State law (which on account of its status as a "Basic Law" becomes part of what passes in Israel as its constitution) than before, but with that law it has definitely taken a lurch away from democratic principles. Instead of a country of Israeli citizens (which includes ethnic Arabs with Israeli citizenship) it has become a country for Jews (which includes any Jews who decide to migrate to it, and excludes ethnic Arabs with Israeli citizenship.

This is precisely what the law's sponsor, Member of the Knesset Avi Dichter had in mind when he first proposed the law in 2011. A few weeks ago he made that crystal clear when he said: "We are enshrining this important bill into a law today to prevent even the slightest thought, let alone attempt, to transform Israel to a country of all its citizen (sic). and responding to Arab legislators who objected to the proposed basic law, Dichter said that "The most you can do is to live among us as a national minority that enjoys equal individual rights, but not equality as a national minority." (Source). There is no doubt either that the Israeli government wants all Arabs Israeli citizens or not, including the currently sitting Arabic members of the Knesset, out of the country: Dichter told them to their face: "We were here before you, and we will be here after you".

Until the passing of this law I have always supported Israel on the grounds of its greater semblance to democratic government than those of its neighbours. Surrounded countries who are governed by tinpot dictators, absolutist kings, colonels and mullahs, it did stand out as a beacon of democracy, albeit a more seriously faulty one than many others. With the passing of the Nation-State law I find it increasingly difficult (in my mind's eye) to address those neighbouring countries about how much worse they are. In fact, I feel reduced to be capable of doing no more than to damn Israel with faint praise.

Sendraks · **#93** by **Sendraks** » Jul 26, 2018 9:25 am

Hermit wrote:
Switzerland comes the closest. It has several referendums every year, and most of them are about more than one issue. Between January 1995 and June 2005, Swiss citizens voted 31 times, to answer 103 questions. Referendums can be used to challenge any law approved by the parliament or, at any time, propose a modification of the federal Constitution.

On the other hand, Switzerland did not introduce universal suffrage until relatively recently. Women were not enfranchised on the federal level until 1971 and the last canton to allow women to vote on a state level was Appenzell Innerrhoden in 1991.

Interesting stuff! Thanks for sharing.

Scot Dutchy · **#94** by **Scot Dutchy** » Jul 26, 2018 9:48 am

Sendraks wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:Are they democracies then? What qualifies them as such?

*sigh*
Both have democratic systems for elections. Yes, those electoral systems are flawed and are not as democratic or representative as other systems but, democracy is not a digital state.

There are no nations that presently operate their political systems on the basis of direct democracy.

Both are totally flawed and can never be any in form called a democracy.

Just because Switzerland has plenty of time wasting referendums how can it be called direct democracy. Where are the debates with informed representatives? Who is responsible for the vote? Who can vote and who not?
Of course there is a government. Switzerland does not run on local councils. How is the government elected?

What is a direct democracy? How would all the voters receive information about the upcoming vote?

Scot Dutchy · **#95** by **Scot Dutchy** » Jul 26, 2018 9:50 am

Israel is no where on the scale of democracies. Not even close.

Sendraks · **#96** by **Sendraks** » Jul 26, 2018 9:58 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Both are totally flawed and can never be any in form called a democracy.

That's your opinion and it really has no bearing on whether they are widely recognised as democracies or not..

Scot Dutchy wrote:Just because Switzerland has plenty of time wasting referendums how can it be called direct democracy.

A quick bit of research shows that Switzerland is recognised as being the closest thing to a direct, or true, democracy there is.
Whether you like that or not, really doesn't matter a damn.

And lets go back to your earlier comment in this thread.

Scot Dutchy wrote:There are plenty of countries that are true democracies but that does not include the USA or UK.

Apparently there are no true democracies, with only one nation (Switzerland) getting anywhere close to being a true democracy.

aban57 · **#97** by **aban57** » Jul 26, 2018 11:34 am

All this discussion bout whether Israel is a "true" or "false" democracy is moot anyway. The problem here is not what Israel is, but what it does. Occupation, land theft, oppression and murders are what's wrong with Israel. This is what fuels anger and war with its neighbors, which in turn is used as a victimization tool by the government and part of the population, and justifies more of this behavior.
And almost all of it is done in the name of their religion.This new law will only serve as an additionnal justification.

aban57 · **#98** by **aban57** » Jul 27, 2018 8:13 am

http://english.pnn.ps/2018/07/27/israeli-ministers-threaten-palestinians-with-more-settlement-and-collective-punishment/

Radical Israeli ministers in the right-wing government launched a verbal attack on the Palestinians following the killing of a settler and the wounding of three others in stabbing attack at Adam settlement last night.

Palestinian sources said that far right government in Israel, which destroyed the peace process, is taking advantage of any event to take collective punishment measures against the Palestinians such as building more settlements, accusing the Palestinian Authority and threatening to deport Palestinians and demolish their homes.

The source said those who follow Israeli statements are aware of the reality of the government leded by Benjamin Netanyahu, adding that statements made by Israeli officials focused on collective punitive measures against Palestinians and calling for Buildingt more settlements, forgetting that the cause of all that is happening is the continuation of Israeli Occoupation to Palestinian land.

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