The day Israel became a theocracy

For discussion of politics, and what's going on in the world today.

Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#21  Postby Cito di Pense » Jul 20, 2018 10:03 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:Who is playing the victim?


That's one way of claiming the moral high ground, but it involves a certain degree of passivity.

To answer your question, though, all human beings are becoming victims of their own success. There isn't anyplace to go where you're not risking stepping on someone else's toes. Maybe they should have turned Austria or Bavaria into the Jewish homeland, displacing those with recent prior claims. The connection with the Levant is a pretty old claim, but it's only supported by scripture.
Хлопнут без некролога. -- Серге́й Па́влович Королёв

Translation by Elbert Hubbard: Do not take life too seriously. You're not going to get out of it alive.
User avatar
Cito di Pense
 
Name: Amir Bagatelle
Posts: 30789
Age: 24
Male

Country: Nutbush City Limits
Ukraine (ua)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#22  Postby CarlPierce » Jul 20, 2018 2:17 pm

The solution to much of the worlds issues is refusing to recognise classifications that divide us and cause conflict such as 'jew' or 'muslim' or 'black' we are just people. Which is why this is an abomination.
User avatar
CarlPierce
RS Donator
 
Posts: 4105
Age: 59
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#23  Postby zulumoose » Jul 20, 2018 2:54 pm

CarlPierce wrote:The solution to much of the worlds issues is refusing to recognise classifications that divide us and cause conflict such as 'jew' or 'muslim' or 'black' we are just people. Which is why this is an abomination.


Yes exactly. Israel has decided to officially adopt an "Us and Them" identity in their constitution along religious and linguistic lines that are closely tied to race. What could go wrong?
User avatar
zulumoose
 
Posts: 3643

Country: South Africa
South Africa (za)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#24  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Jul 22, 2018 1:26 am

Some supporters of the law have claimed there are similar laws in European countries,

Supporters of the bill said it was similar to legislation in Europe, for example a law that makes French the official language of France.

They point to the constitution of Slovenia, which declares the country to be “a state of all its citizens” but is founded on “the permanent right” of the Slovene majority “to self-determination.”

“[The nation state law] is far milder and more liberal than the constitutional arrangements of even some of the most liberal countries,” said Eugene Kontorovich, head of international law at the Kohelet Policy Forum, an Israeli think tank which supported the bill.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... -national/

Of course that does not make it alright. I think countries have a duty to protect certain national cultural and political attributes but this is not the right way to go about it, making non-Jews second rate citizens. However I suspect this is how it works in many countries all over the world, that there are many laws in many countries apart from Israel that discriminate in some ways against some of their citizens.
Arjan Dirkse
 
Posts: 1860
Male

Netherlands (nl)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#25  Postby Calilasseia » Jul 22, 2018 5:56 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:Of course that does not make it alright. I think countries have a duty to protect certain national cultural and political attributes but this is not the right way to go about it, making non-Jews second rate citizens. However I suspect this is how it works in many countries all over the world, that there are many laws in many countries apart from Israel that discriminate in some ways against some of their citizens.


And therein lies a basic dilemma of progressive politics. How to preserve values regarded as worth preserving, without acting at variance to some of those values. If you're opposed to discrimination, preserving core values becomes something of a tightrope walk, if those values are perceived, however erroneously, as being the purview of a particular group. The way forward, of course, is to provide evidence that preservation and maintenance of certain values, is being conducted for everyone, with the specific aim of dispensing benefit to everyone via said maintenance of those values. That includes, of course, those who don't share our values.

Of course, the big danger of proceeding along this path, is that duplicitous enemies will take the expression above of the relevant objectives, and corrupt those objectives irredeemably, by pressing the expression thereof into apologetic service for policies that are anathema to the progressive cause. A danger made all the more pressing by the rise of right-wing propaganda of unreality - namely, the wholesale discarding of any notion of 'reality' as understood by the rest of us, in favour of the view, fatuous and pernicious in equal measure, that reality will reshape itself to conform to the propaganda, if only said propaganda is shouted loudly and frequently enough.

This fatuous and pernicious view, that reality is malleable to one's own ends, if only one exerts enough propaganda effort, is dangerous enough in the hands of those driven by ideological motives, but so-called 'neoliberalism' has seen the rise of an even more dangerous deployment of the tactic, on the part of those who have a commitment not to ideology, but to crude personal gain. Who, furthermore, will take full advantage of the aetiology of ideology, to further that personal gain, whilst regarding any ideology presented not as the ideologue does, as a sort of 'divine revelation', but simply as a convenient tool of manipulation.

That's the distinction we, as progressives, need to stress time and again - that we are motivated by ethical, not mercenary, concerns. We are motivated by the extension of well-being to the widest possible cohort of recipients, not making it the exclusive preserve of a financially privileged few. We are motivated by the desire to see a better world for all, in direct opposition to the service of sinister ends pursued by the already over-powerful and over-endowed. We are motivated by the concerns of the entire human species, not the limited desires of a small but rapacious coterie of ruthless hoarders. That message needs to be presented, vigorously and robustly, because failure to do so, could have dire consequences.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
 
Posts: 22634
Age: 62
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#26  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 22, 2018 11:02 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:Some supporters of the law have claimed there are similar laws in European countries,

Supporters of the bill said it was similar to legislation in Europe, for example a law that makes French the official language of France.

They point to the constitution of Slovenia, which declares the country to be “a state of all its citizens” but is founded on “the permanent right” of the Slovene majority “to self-determination.”

“[The nation state law] is far milder and more liberal than the constitutional arrangements of even some of the most liberal countries,” said Eugene Kontorovich, head of international law at the Kohelet Policy Forum, an Israeli think tank which supported the bill.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... -national/

Of course that does not make it alright. I think countries have a duty to protect certain national cultural and political attributes but this is not the right way to go about it, making non-Jews second rate citizens. However I suspect this is how it works in many countries all over the world, that there are many laws in many countries apart from Israel that discriminate in some ways against some of their citizens.

Most countries distinguish between citizens and non-citzens. Not between ethnicities, religions or race.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31091
Age: 34
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#27  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 22, 2018 1:06 pm

As in the Dutch constitution.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 43119
Age: 75
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#28  Postby aban57 » Jul 22, 2018 3:48 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:As in the Dutch constitution.


As in most european countries.
aban57
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Cindy
Posts: 7501
Age: 44
Female

Country: France
Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#29  Postby Scot Dutchy » Jul 22, 2018 3:50 pm

I hope. Never read them all.
Myths in islam Women and islam Musilm opinion polls


"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
Scot Dutchy
 
Posts: 43119
Age: 75
Male

Country: Nederland
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#30  Postby willhud9 » Jul 22, 2018 9:10 pm

I am also unsure of what people mean when they say they don’t support Israel. Like do you don’t think Israel should exist? Well you’re wrong.

Do you think Israel should stop its theft and encroachment on Palestinian territory and deliberately sabotaging any negotiations because they want land? Then why does this law change that? :scratch:


Furthermore, parliamentary actions are reversible. We are seeing a global populist surge in politics but also seeing a rebuke of said populism in pockets. The U.K., the US, and Israel should not be judged in a sweeping generalization by actions of lawmakers.

The parliamentary act is contentious in Israel and was not backed with a sweeping majority: 62-55 with several abstentions.

How is Israel’s actions in stating that their ancestral homeland is theirs dramatically different than Scotland’s historic fight for independence from the U.K. and recognition that’s Scotland is home of the Scots?

I’m not saying I agree or disagree with Israel’s actions and I most certainly think israel is a very guilty party when it comes to exclusion and racism, but I’m also not sure the sanctimonious admissions of “no longer supporting Israel” are sincere.

:dunno:
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
 
Name: William
Posts: 19379
Age: 32
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#31  Postby Animavore » Jul 22, 2018 9:52 pm

willhud9 wrote:
How is Israel’s actions in stating that their ancestral homeland is theirs dramatically different than Scotland’s historic fight for independence from the U.K. and recognition that’s Scotland is home of the Scots?


Your analogy is arse backwards. The Palestinians are the Scots fighting for independence from a foreign invader. Many of the Jews in Israel now have not lived there for generations. If at all given that genetics shows that many modern Jews are of European and not Semitic origin. In fact the Palestinians are the Semitic ones, which makes a mockery of supporting them being labelled "anti-Semitism".
A most evolved electron.
User avatar
Animavore
 
Name: The Scribbler
Posts: 45108
Age: 45
Male

Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#32  Postby willhud9 » Jul 22, 2018 10:12 pm

That is a very eugenics sounding condition to considering a home ancestral. So their genetic disposition gives them “greater” claim to land? What bollocks.

Never mind the fact that Central Europeans were extraditing Jews out of Central Europe to Palestine during the 1800-1900’s, it’s not surprising to see their genetic stock supports a European background.

That is irrelevant.

If you wish to judge a people’s claim on lands based on genetics then may as well get a swastika on and consider yourself fascist. :dunno:
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
 
Name: William
Posts: 19379
Age: 32
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#33  Postby Animavore » Jul 22, 2018 10:28 pm

:lol:

I can't even take you seriously.
A most evolved electron.
User avatar
Animavore
 
Name: The Scribbler
Posts: 45108
Age: 45
Male

Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#34  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Jul 22, 2018 10:45 pm

willhud9 wrote:I am also unsure of what people mean when they say they don’t support Israel. Like do you don’t think Israel should exist? Well you’re wrong.

Do you think Israel should stop its theft and encroachment on Palestinian territory and deliberately sabotaging any negotiations because they want land? Then why does this law change that? :scratch:


Furthermore, parliamentary actions are reversible. We are seeing a global populist surge in politics but also seeing a rebuke of said populism in pockets. The U.K., the US, and Israel should not be judged in a sweeping generalization by actions of lawmakers.

The parliamentary act is contentious in Israel and was not backed with a sweeping majority: 62-55 with several abstentions.

How is Israel’s actions in stating that their ancestral homeland is theirs dramatically different than Scotland’s historic fight for independence from the U.K. and recognition that’s Scotland is home of the Scots?

I’m not saying I agree or disagree with Israel’s actions and I most certainly think israel is a very guilty party when it comes to exclusion and racism, but I’m also not sure the sanctimonious admissions of “no longer supporting Israel” are sincere.

:dunno:


Why "should Israel exist"? The land hasn't been a "Jewish state" since before Roman times. It is a silly idea that the land should belong to a Jewish state because of some millenia old claim.

I'm not saying Israel "shouldn't exist" either. It exists and it isn't going anywhere, and I believe the Jews deserve a state of their own, where they are safe. So we need to come up with a workable solution for everyone.
Arjan Dirkse
 
Posts: 1860
Male

Netherlands (nl)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#35  Postby Animavore » Jul 22, 2018 10:57 pm

The Palestinians are the ancestors of the Jewish who once lived there. They never went anywhere. Their culture and religion changed is all.

The Israelis are ex-pats who are acting like the Palestinians are different people who came in after they left instead of seeing them as the same people. It's really silly.
A most evolved electron.
User avatar
Animavore
 
Name: The Scribbler
Posts: 45108
Age: 45
Male

Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#36  Postby aban57 » Jul 22, 2018 11:20 pm

willhud9 wrote:
Furthermore, parliamentary actions are reversible. We are seeing a global populist surge in politics but also seeing a rebuke of said populism in pockets. The U.K., the US, and Israel should not be judged in a sweeping generalization by actions of lawmakers.


Why not ? Last israeli governments have been more to the right than the previous ones. And all of them elected properly. It's not like their religious leaning is only due to a minority of lawmakers. It's why they've been elected on.
aban57
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Cindy
Posts: 7501
Age: 44
Female

Country: France
Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#37  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Jul 22, 2018 11:22 pm

Animavore wrote:The Palestinians are the ancestors of the Jewish who once lived there. They never went anywhere. Their culture and religion changed is all.


I think you mean descendants?

There are plenty of genetic studies that show European Jews are connected to the Levant region though. (Many Paestinians are probably also the descendants of those Jews as you claim, so Jews and Palestinians are really brothers.) Not that it really matters, it doesn't give them a right to claim the land wchere their ancestors lived 2,500 years ago.
Arjan Dirkse
 
Posts: 1860
Male

Netherlands (nl)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#38  Postby willhud9 » Jul 22, 2018 11:35 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
willhud9 wrote:I am also unsure of what people mean when they say they don’t support Israel. Like do you don’t think Israel should exist? Well you’re wrong.

Do you think Israel should stop its theft and encroachment on Palestinian territory and deliberately sabotaging any negotiations because they want land? Then why does this law change that? :scratch:


Furthermore, parliamentary actions are reversible. We are seeing a global populist surge in politics but also seeing a rebuke of said populism in pockets. The U.K., the US, and Israel should not be judged in a sweeping generalization by actions of lawmakers.

The parliamentary act is contentious in Israel and was not backed with a sweeping majority: 62-55 with several abstentions.

How is Israel’s actions in stating that their ancestral homeland is theirs dramatically different than Scotland’s historic fight for independence from the U.K. and recognition that’s Scotland is home of the Scots?

I’m not saying I agree or disagree with Israel’s actions and I most certainly think israel is a very guilty party when it comes to exclusion and racism, but I’m also not sure the sanctimonious admissions of “no longer supporting Israel” are sincere.

:dunno:


Why "should Israel exist"? The land hasn't been a "Jewish state" since before Roman times. It is a silly idea that the land should belong to a Jewish state because of some millenia old claim.

I'm not saying Israel "shouldn't exist" either. It exists and it isn't going anywhere, and I believe the Jews deserve a state of their own, where they are safe. So we need to come up with a workable solution for everyone.


I’m not saying it should exist either for that reason.

But rather I can understand the argument. If the US colonials had not committed mass genocide of native Americans and native tribes gathered together to claim their ancestral land I would be hard pressed to come up with a reason why they shouldn’t have their land back: except for that fact that it’s settled with families who have made it their home as well.

Israel is far from an innocent country and the issue is not one which will have a universal fix. People will be unhappy whatever the decision. This change in their law is no big shocker or surprise. It does not make Israel a theocracy. That would mean the church runs the state.

It makes Judaism the official religion of Israel. Makes Hebrew the official language. Gives privileges to Jews.

It’s basically England with its Church of England. :dunno:

Until Israel actively starts persecuting Muslims or prohibiting free exercise of religion, or dismisses its parliamentary system for an autocratic church run system; the idea that Israel is a theocracy seems absurd.
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
 
Name: William
Posts: 19379
Age: 32
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#39  Postby Arjan Dirkse » Jul 23, 2018 12:07 am

willhud9 wrote:
Arjan Dirkse wrote:
willhud9 wrote:I am also unsure of what people mean when they say they don’t support Israel. Like do you don’t think Israel should exist? Well you’re wrong.

Do you think Israel should stop its theft and encroachment on Palestinian territory and deliberately sabotaging any negotiations because they want land? Then why does this law change that? :scratch:


Furthermore, parliamentary actions are reversible. We are seeing a global populist surge in politics but also seeing a rebuke of said populism in pockets. The U.K., the US, and Israel should not be judged in a sweeping generalization by actions of lawmakers.

The parliamentary act is contentious in Israel and was not backed with a sweeping majority: 62-55 with several abstentions.

How is Israel’s actions in stating that their ancestral homeland is theirs dramatically different than Scotland’s historic fight for independence from the U.K. and recognition that’s Scotland is home of the Scots?

I’m not saying I agree or disagree with Israel’s actions and I most certainly think israel is a very guilty party when it comes to exclusion and racism, but I’m also not sure the sanctimonious admissions of “no longer supporting Israel” are sincere.

:dunno:


Why "should Israel exist"? The land hasn't been a "Jewish state" since before Roman times. It is a silly idea that the land should belong to a Jewish state because of some millenia old claim.

I'm not saying Israel "shouldn't exist" either. It exists and it isn't going anywhere, and I believe the Jews deserve a state of their own, where they are safe. So we need to come up with a workable solution for everyone.


I’m not saying it should exist either for that reason.

But rather I can understand the argument. If the US colonials had not committed mass genocide of native Americans and native tribes gathered together to claim their ancestral land I would be hard pressed to come up with a reason why they shouldn’t have their land back: except for that fact that it’s settled with families who have made it their home as well.

Israel is far from an innocent country and the issue is not one which will have a universal fix. People will be unhappy whatever the decision. This change in their law is no big shocker or surprise. It does not make Israel a theocracy. That would mean the church runs the state.

It makes Judaism the official religion of Israel. Makes Hebrew the official language. Gives privileges to Jews.

It’s basically England with its Church of England. :dunno:

Until Israel actively starts persecuting Muslims or prohibiting free exercise of religion, or dismisses its parliamentary system for an autocratic church run system; the idea that Israel is a theocracy seems absurd.


I wouldn't call Israel a theocracy either. I just didn't agree with your contention that Israel "should exist." The Jews deserve a hmeland, but I don't think it necessarily had to be in that place in the world. The Bible or their ancient history don't give them a special right to claim the land as their own.

Israel is not a theocracy, but it has enshrined religious discrimination in law (or ethnic discrimination if you see "Jewish" as an ethnicity). This basic law gives certain rights to the Jewish people alone, meaning people who aren't Jewish have less rights. Avi Dichter who first proposed the law said it's purpose was:

...to block any attempt to transform Israel into a country of all of its citizens. (from wiki)


I can understand why it makes people so upset.
Arjan Dirkse
 
Posts: 1860
Male

Netherlands (nl)
Print view this post

Re: The day Israel became a theocracy

#40  Postby willhud9 » Jul 23, 2018 2:54 am

Fair enough.
Fear is a choice you embrace
Your only truth
Tribal poetry
Witchcraft filling your void
Lust for fantasy
Male necrocracy
Every child worthy of a better tale
User avatar
willhud9
 
Name: William
Posts: 19379
Age: 32
Male

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to News, Politics & Current Affairs

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest