willhud9 wrote:It does not make Israel a theocracy. That would mean the church runs the state.

Or in this case, the official religion runs the state. So far, some Israelis on the left tried to prevent the colonization because its official justification (God gave them this land) was bogus. With this law, this justification will become predominant. We are a Jew state, this is Jew land, according to Jew religion. Hence theocracy.

While I think some of the responses on here are verging on unnecessary hyperbole, this is downright shitty even by the usual standards of the Israeli right. Even should the pendulum swing back the other way, so that a centre-left coalition has a shot at getting the peace process back on track, there'll now be another constitutional roadblock in the way.

In a supreme act of irony, even Saudi Arabia - a genuine theocracy - are slamming this law:

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/internat ... sraeli-law

Er... don't look too hard at your own constitution, guys.

Matt_B wrote:
Er... don't look too hard at your own constitution, guys.

Some of supporters of the law claim that there are many nations around the world including in Europe with similar laws. I'd like to see those examples. It would be pretty stupid if we only get mad when Israel does it.

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

Matt_B wrote:
Er... don't look too hard at your own constitution, guys.

Some of supporters of the law claim that there are many nations around the world including in Europe with similar laws. I'd like to see those examples. It would be pretty stupid if we only get mad when Israel does it.

I guess you could look at all the countries that still have established state religions and blasphemy laws on the books for a couple of examples. That said, such laws tend to be relics of a bygone era, not freshly enacted in recent years. As such, singling out Israel over this still seems fair to me.

Failing that, the Vatican City State is in Europe.

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

Matt_B wrote:
Er... don't look too hard at your own constitution, guys.

Some of supporters of the law claim that there are many nations around the world including in Europe with similar laws. I'd like to see those examples. It would be pretty stupid if we only get mad when Israel does it.

Allegedly seven EU members have similar constitutional provisions. Two of those were named: Latvia and Slovakia. It is indeed stupid to not get mad about them, if true. Double standard, and all that. It is not stupid to get mad about Israel doing the same.

Hermit wrote:

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

Matt_B wrote:It is not stupid to get mad about Israel doing the same.

Of course, two wrongs don't make a right.

In the case of Latvia I know they don't recognize Russian as an offical language despite 37 % of the population being of Russian ethnicity. I think countries have a right to set an official language though, they don't have to recognize minority languages as official languages. But what is Israel is doing is more than just setting an official language.

I don't believe they have set Judaism as state religion as has been claimed in this thread by the way. Here is the whole text of the law: https://www.timesofisrael.com/final-tex ... ecome-law/

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

Hermit wrote:

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

Matt_B wrote:It is not stupid to get mad about Israel doing the same.

Of course, two wrongs don't make a right.

In the case of Latvia I know they don't recognize Russian as an offical language despite 37 % of the population being of Russian ethnicity. I think countries have a right to set an official language though, they don't have to recognize minority languages as official languages. But what is Israel is doing is more than just setting an official language.

I don't believe they have set Judaism as state religion as has been claimed in this thread by the way. Here is the whole text of the law: https://www.timesofisrael.com/final-tex ... ecome-law/

If you wish to discuss something I said, quote it. It makes discussions easier to conduct. As it stands just now, I don't know what the fuck you are addressing, nor do I know if you are agreeing or disagreeing with whatever that may be.

Arjan Dirkse wrote:I don't believe they have set Judaism as state religion as has been claimed in this thread by the way. Here is the whole text of the law: https://www.timesofisrael.com/final-tex ... ecome-law/

I'm not sure where you'd set the yardstick for these things, but there are clearly clauses in the law that single out Judaism for favourable treatment. That might not strictly meet the definition of a state religion, and calling it theocracy seems like mere hyperbole, but it's definitely a departure from secularism.

Still, while there are other countries in the developed world that aren't secular states, Israel is in the somewhat unique position of being in the midst of an ongoing peace process and several of the clauses in the law take stances which would not allow for any meaningful negotiation to take place. There are some, such as the one about an undivided Jerusalem being the capital, which don't even reference religion. To my mind at least, this seems far more about that than it is about making a country where Judaism dictates the law.

Hermit wrote:
Of course, two wrongs don't make
If you wish to discuss something I said, quote it. It makes discussions easier to conduct. As it stands just now, I don't know what the fuck you are addressing, nor do I know if you are agreeing or disagreeing with whatever that may be.

Sorry, I did something wrong with the quote thingies, I quoted something you said namely: "It is not stupid to get mad about Israel doing the same." Due to a mistake it looks like it is a quote by Matt_B.

This is hilarious. The only democracy in a sea of theocracies is now also labeled a theocracy for declaring the Jewish state?

angelo wrote:This is hilarious. The only democracy in a sea of theocracies is now also labeled a theocracy for declaring the Jewish state?

Still parroting the same counterfactual nonsense I see. Israel has never been a true democracy.
And by taking the action discussed in the OP they've merely reaffirmed that.

Hermit wrote:: Latvia and Slovakia. It is indeed stupid to not get mad about them, if true.

To be fair ... while if there are any religiosity laws I am completely unaware of them on my visits there.

There are language laws ... this I suspect is in response to close to fifty years of Soviets trying to Russify Latvia. This includes importing tens of thousands of Russians, so that today close to thirty percent of the population is Russian. Interestingly these language laws were based on Quebec's language laws.

But it does have a large number "stateless" people ... mainly Russians. Though not quite technically stateless.

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

angelo wrote:This is hilarious. The only democracy in a sea of theocracies is now also labeled a theocracy for declaring the Jewish state?

Still parroting the same counterfactual nonsense I see. Israel has never been a true democracy.
And by taking the action discussed in the OP they've merely reaffirmed that.

Find me a country that is a "true" democracy.

Your conditional definition is shameful, especially since you are a history major. It is a "no true scotsman" fallacy and you know it.

Israel has a democratically elected parliament which deliberates legislation, and elects the president, whom then appoints the prime minister out of the 120 Knesset members. Universal suffrage is also the law in Israel. There are numerous anti-discrimination laws against mistreatment of ethnic minorities.

Furthermore, in a sea of anti-LGBT nations that is the Middle East, Israel is a bastion of tolerance for the LGBT community, with Tel Aviv's pride events some of the best in the world.

Israel is NOT perfect. They have made some horrible decisions and with Netanyahu's zealotry has taken steps backwards against peace for a more nationalistic approach. I get that. I am not a blind Israel supporter.

But to say Israel is not democratic? Sod off with that nonsense.

Then maybe we should make up a new word for this situation. How would you call a religion-led democracy ?

willhud9 wrote:

Thomas Eshuis wrote:

angelo wrote:This is hilarious. The only democracy in a sea of theocracies is now also labeled a theocracy for declaring the Jewish state?

Still parroting the same counterfactual nonsense I see. Israel has never been a true democracy.
And by taking the action discussed in the OP they've merely reaffirmed that.

Find me a country that is a "true" democracy.

Your conditional definition is shameful, especially since you are a history major. It is a "no true scotsman" fallacy and you know it.

Since you don't know what I mean when I say true democracy, you might want to withhold judgement until you do.
I do not mean it is not an absolute democracy, I mean that it isn't an equal democracy in which each citizen has the same rights. Which has never been the case in Israel.

willhud9 wrote:Israel has a democratically elected parliament which deliberates legislation, and elects the president, whom then appoints the prime minister out of the 120 Knesset members. Universal suffrage is also the law in Israel. There are numerous anti-discrimination laws against mistreatment of ethnic minorities.

And also numerous discrimination charges made against the state by UN agencies and other international civil right orginisations.

willhud9 wrote:Furthermore, in a sea of anti-LGBT nations that is the Middle East, Israel is a bastion of tolerance for the LGBT community, with Tel Aviv's pride events some of the best in the world.

That's cherry-picking a red herring.
Just because Israel is doing X part of a democracy right, doesn't mean they do every part of it right.

willhud9 wrote:Israel is NOT perfect.

I never said it was and would appreciate it you don't insinuate all manner of things I haven't expressed.
Again, if you want to know my views, ask, don't presume to read my mind when I haven't made any such claims.

willhud9 wrote:But to say Israel is not democratic? Sod off with that nonsense.

Tell that to the person who made that claim.
I never said it wasn't democratic, I said it wasn't a true democracy. Stop jumping to ludicrous hyperbole and respond to what I actually post.

and I said your definition of "true" democracy is a) bullshit and b) conditional.

It is a Thomas invention, not an actual thing.

Again, find me a country that is a "true" democracy and I will create my own equally bullshit conditions that limit it from being a "true" democracy.

Equal representation conditions =/= non-democratic. Again its a no true scotsman fallacy.

Try again.

aban57 wrote:Then maybe we should make up a new word for this situation. How would you call a religion-led democracy ?

It is not religion led. The Torah nor any Jewish religious text is not the basis of Israeli law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law ... _of_Israel

Until the church runs the state it is not religion-led.

Many politicians express personal and deeply held religious convictions. When they vote in accordance with those principals in say France does that make those politicians engage in religious led democracy? Or simple representative democracy? Are politicians not allowed to have personal feelings and thoughts while representing their constituents?

Furthermore, the text of this legislation in Israel does not even mention Judaism or any religious text. It reiterates self-determination of Jews and makes Hebrew the official language. It is nationalistic mumbo-jumbo, not oppresive religious mumbo-jumbo. Not MUCH better, as nationalism is a religion to many people i.e. look at how many Americans view their country, but still not based on religious text.

There are plenty of countries that are true democracies but that does not include the USA or UK.

Is not the only thing necessary for a country to be democratic to have democratic elections?

Yep.