UK EU Referendum

Warren Dew · **#1341** by **Warren Dew** » Jun 25, 2016 3:32 am

Time for the UK to join Oceania, er, NAFTA?

Matt_B · **#1342** by **Matt_B** » Jun 25, 2016 3:39 am

jamest wrote:
mcgruff wrote: Needless austerity.

Why is austerity needless when one finds oneself in mountains of debt? If you owed the banks thousands of pounds, for example, would you continue living the lifestyle which led to that debt? Would you borrow even more money so that you could sustain said lifestyle?

... There is nothing 'needless' about austerity. The alternative is to roll the dice and spend more with the HOPE of making more. The gambler's dream.

By "austerity" I think he means the slashing of public services whilst simultaneously doing little to reduce the deficit by splashing large amounts of cash on tax cuts for wealthy individuals and corporations.

Had Osborne actually managed to live up to his promises of getting the country's finances back in the black, you might have a point.

Ah well, his days are surely numbered now. I'm just wondering who'll be next up.

Matt_B · **#1343** by **Matt_B** » Jun 25, 2016 3:41 am

Warren Dew wrote:Time for the UK to join Oceania, er, NAFTA?

Either that or Eurasia... I mean the EEU.

Take your pick and it'll be off to the Ministry of Truth to re-write the history books. :grin:

chairman bill · **#1344** by **chairman bill** » Jun 25, 2016 6:09 am

There needs to be a legal challenge to the referendum result. Firstly, it was run under EU regs which require a 60% vote in favour, on a 75%+ turnout, neither of which were achieved. In addition, the lies that the Leave campaign were peddling have quickly unravelled, leaving many Brexit voters with buyers' remorse. There is no £350 million to spend on the NHS, and there'll be no changes to the rules about EU migration if we still want the free trade with Europe, and no bonfire of regulations (they're all integrated into UK law). People were sold a pup, and unlike a general election, there's no voting the buggers out in five years time.

scott1328 · **#1345** by **scott1328** » Jun 25, 2016 6:20 am

Matt_B wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:Time for the UK to join Oceania, er, NAFTA?

Either that or Eurasia... I mean the EEU.

Take your pick and it'll be off to the Ministry of Truth to re-write the history books.

What are you all talking about? Airstrip One has always been a key part of Oceania.

chairman bill · **#1346** by **chairman bill** » Jun 25, 2016 6:27 am

The petition for a 2nd referendum has reached the numbers required for a Parliamentary debate. Here's hoping.

Agi Hammerthief · **#1347** by **Agi Hammerthief** » Jun 25, 2016 6:32 am

chairman bill wrote:The petition for a 2nd referendum has reached the numbers required for a Parliamentary debate. Here's hoping.

The second referendum for Scotland to leave the UK?

tuco · **#1348** by **tuco** » Jun 25, 2016 6:51 am

mcgruff wrote:
tuco wrote:Enigma or not, you have to live with them as they have to live with you. In open society nobody is in possession of ultimate truth, is friendly dogma.

There is such a thing as objective reality.

Oh really, like what? Speed of light in vacuum? We are however in politics, not physics and there is no ultimate truth here.

Towards A Global Open Society, By George Soros, Atlantic, January 1998 - http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/25a/086.html

chairman bill · **#1349** by **chairman bill** » Jun 25, 2016 6:53 am

Agi Hammerthief wrote:
chairman bill wrote:The petition for a 2nd referendum has reached the numbers required for a Parliamentary debate. Here's hoping.

The second referendum for Scotland to leave the UK?

No, a second referendum on EU membership. The rules allow for one, when the result fails to meet the threshold of a 60% majority, from a 75%+ turnout. Currently the petition (which needs 100,000) is at nearly 600,00 & growing, so Parliament will need to debate it.

ED209 · **#1350** by **ED209** » Jun 25, 2016 7:05 am

fisherman wrote:
ED209 wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:All the brexit voters I've heard have cited immigration as their primary concern. "They're taking over" etc. And they've all been fucking working class gcse dropouts or nationalistic pensioners too. They just don't like the foreigners. If you can't see where that generalisation is coming from you must have used a different TV package and/or not have any working class friends. One of my dear friends voted brexit. "Poles go home!" etc. Love him but the's a xenophobic cunt no doubt.

I watched about 14 hours of BBC news last night and heard literally not one person say "they're taking over", albeit hundreds of soundbites of people citing immigration concerns were played. Other reasons were also prominent. Sovereignty, lack of democratic accountability in the EU, failing institutions, not having enjoyed the benefits of the recovery. I can see where the generalisation is coming from by the way, principally from people who didn't vote for Brexit. It's all too easy to place our own filter over events.

Anwyay, the Poles that are already here won't be going home, so at least you can rest easy that even if one of your friends has an obnoxious view, it really won't matter. Try to hold on to that thought, things might seem better in the morning.

I didn't watch TV but I have spoken to hundreds of people in different towns while campaigning, Every time someone said 'out' I'd ask why and the vast majority would say immigration.

I do recall someone replying with "democracy" and when I said what do you mean democracy (ready with counter arguments about FPTP, who appoints the pm, HoL etc) they just said "well the EU says we have to keep letting in all these immigrants".

I really don't see how anyone can seriously dispute what Leave voters believe this referendum was about.

Did you get the sense that the immigration issue was a stand alone issue, or that immigration was a symptom of an underlying issue around inequality in some way?

In quite a few cases - those that were yelling racist abuse in the street, those who angrily approached me, those who assaulted or spat at other remain campaigners - I suppose they were 'racist' racists, yes.

But in general, i think most racism takes the form of scapegoating The Other for ones own poverty, misfortune, lack of opportunity so in that sense is 'caused by' inequality and other social problems. That's why it does seem to me to be those with the shittest lives who are racist, with 'high functioning racists' like farage and wilders quickly rising to the status of demagogues.

ED209 · **#1351** by **ED209** » Jun 25, 2016 7:09 am

Thommo wrote:
ED209 wrote:I really don't see how anyone can seriously dispute what Leave voters believe this referendum was about.

They'd probably start by reading the quote actually under dispute. If you said that you'd spoken to hundreds of people who voted out and every single one of them described themself as "xenophobic, isolationist, unfriendly chavs" I simply wouldn't believe you.

I don't care how they describe themselves. When someone says "I'm not racist, but..." do you take that at face value?

ED209 · **#1352** by **ED209** » Jun 25, 2016 7:23 am

mcgruff wrote:
jamest wrote:a) It's lost/losing its sovereignty/power.

Stupidity.

jamest wrote:b) It's fast-losing its identity.

Xenophobia.

jamest wrote:c) It's fast-losing its capacity to cope with an unlimited amount of immigrants entering the country.

Xenophobia/racism.

jamest wrote:I was pissed-off with the subversive campaign to tarnish leavers as either stupid or racist.

No shit.

...

I'm going to pitch a version of Just A Minute in which brexiters have to talk for one minute without repetition hesitation or racism. They're like the klansmen in django unchained, striving for public acceptability but unable to stop themselves.

Exstinctum · **#1353** by **Exstinctum** » Jun 25, 2016 7:25 am

Warren Dew wrote:Time for the UK to join Oceania, er, NAFTA?

It's time to count the cost. The stakes are pretty high. When I go binge drinking for a few days, I just have to check my bank account and cringe. In this case an entire generation might end up paying for this.

Do not fool yourselves. Brussels will make this as painful as possible for a simple reason - they don't want other EU states getting similar ideas, since that would threaten the entire Union. Poland, Sweden, Italy are all on the list of countries who could potentially vote for leaving in significant numbers. Make no doubt about this. The UK will have to pay, especially because they were in a leadership role.

ED209 · **#1354** by **ED209** » Jun 25, 2016 7:31 am

mcgruff wrote:
jamest wrote:You appear to be missing the point. Nations, like individuals, have enduring characteristics/personas. Without those characteristics they lose their identities and become something new.

That is such horseshit.

How many sections of society are there and how many personas do they have?

How many political or religious beliefs are there?

How many versions of history are there? Do all stories even get told, or given equal weight?

How often have your "enduring national characteristics" simply been invented by spin doctors in the service of royalty or politicians, myths which help to sustain their power?

Geography and climate might possibly play a role in national character, within limits.

Mostly it's all invented bullshit.

What's the average weight of a bison? Every time a bison dies or is born, that changes. In time, things evolve and adapt to changes. The concept of 'things according to their kind' is a backwards creationist one and no wonder that such people obsess over miscegenation and who can live where.

ED209 · **#1355** by **ED209** » Jun 25, 2016 7:32 am

jamest wrote:
Thommo wrote:
jamest wrote:If you want independence, at least have the balls to leave the UK and the EU.

Why? What is wrong with being a Scottish pragmatist?

Wtf is a Scottish pragmatist? Someone who wears a sari instead of a kilt?....

DING DING DING

ED209 · **#1356** by **ED209** » Jun 25, 2016 7:38 am

jamest wrote:
mcgruff wrote: Needless austerity.

Why is austerity needless when one finds oneself in mountains of debt? If you owed the banks thousands of pounds, for example, would you continue living the lifestyle which led to that debt? ...

Oh look, the household debt analogy that has been utterly debunked a million times already. Of course, you lot have 'had enough of experts' haven't you.

VazScep · **#1357** by **VazScep** » Jun 25, 2016 7:47 am

DougC wrote:I needed to put some cash in my RBS account today for my car insurance on Monday (stick with me here).

The customer in front of me was trying to get some Euros, the cashier informed her that all foreign exchange transactions had been suspended as they had no idea where the pound was.

It's happened before.

GrahamH · **#1358** by **GrahamH** » Jun 25, 2016 8:41 am

Boyle wrote:
jamest wrote:There's a bigger picture here, and few get it. The irony is that I'm all for a united Europe, indeed a united World, but what's the fucking point of pursuing such ideals when nations are still self-serving and the individuals of those nations are still self-serving? None. All it will lead to is failed marriages. We're better off single until/unless we can transcend our singular mindset.

So you're for a united Europe but think it's impossible. Are you sure you're for a united Europe? This is like me saying I'm for unicorn ownership.

The problem here is Jamest's odd views about how to 'transcend our singular mindset'. To him that requires some whacky mysticism. To the rest of it is require us to open up from insular stereotypical and perhaps xenophobic ideas of national identity and sovereignty.

Doe he want a Europe that fits his idea of Britishness that does whatever it's told to by his sovereign Britain?

A united Europe is obviously one where sovereignty is pooled and narrow minded nationalism is set aside in favour of an inclusive big community view.

In short, something like what the EU is. If you wanted a united Europe you should have embraced it's ideals rather than derided them.

GrahamH · **#1359** by **GrahamH** » Jun 25, 2016 8:44 am

jamest wrote:
b) It's fast-losing its identity.

What is this identity you think is being lost?

It's a phrase I've heard a lot and I'd really like to know what a leaver thinks it means.

LucidFlight · **#1360** by **LucidFlight** » Jun 25, 2016 8:48 am

GrahamH wrote:
jamest wrote:
b) It's fast-losing its identity.

What is this identity you think is being lost?

It's a phrase I've heard a lot and I'd really like to know what a leaver thinks it means.

What ever it is, it's only an observed identity that a collective mind would want us to have

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