UK Labour Party Watch

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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3981  Postby Beatsong » Oct 08, 2015 2:15 pm

Emmeline wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Emmeline wrote:I'm not missing the point. Scot's opinion is that it's a talking shop and he can say that as often as he likes. He's entitled to dismiss every argument against his opinion. He's not obliged to debate with anyone. He can ignore as many posts as he likes. ..


And he can be criticised for doing that.


Yes he can but it's a bit hollow in threads littered with insult slinging, needling, sarcasm & snide remarks.


Yes, agreed. That's why it's important not to try and engage with the unengageable. It just takes the debate onto that level.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3982  Postby mattthomas » Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm

Beatsong wrote:
Emmeline wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
Emmeline wrote:I'm not missing the point. Scot's opinion is that it's a talking shop and he can say that as often as he likes. He's entitled to dismiss every argument against his opinion. He's not obliged to debate with anyone. He can ignore as many posts as he likes. ..


And he can be criticised for doing that.


Yes he can but it's a bit hollow in threads littered with insult slinging, needling, sarcasm & snide remarks.


Yes, agreed. That's why it's important not to try and engage with the unengageable. It just takes the debate onto that level.

To paraphrase, "Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3983  Postby Beatsong » Oct 08, 2015 2:19 pm

Yes. Experience or just sheer persistence.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3984  Postby Emmeline » Oct 08, 2015 3:38 pm

Beatsong wrote:
In the meantime, given that we have a forum where both meaningful debate and moronic pig headed auto-repeat can be posted within the rules, I don't see why people shouldn't call moronic pig-headed auto-repeat what it is, and laugh at the people who post it as much as they deserve. Nor do I understand why you have such a problem with them doing so, and seem to think it's worthy of equal respect to more meaningful contributions.


You can call such posts whatever you like. My 'problem' is that Scot has been told to shut up and leave the discussion to others on the grounds that his posts aren't up to some arbitrary standard that doesn't apply to everyone else.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3985  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 08, 2015 4:08 pm

We are suffering from a group of people who consider themselves superior to other members especially those who have opposite views to theirs.

The arrogance is just appalling. Who in the hell do these people think they are. They are rife with snidey comments that would not be out of place in the gutter. They misrepresent anything which is opposite to their views. I explained fully my reasons for my comments time and time again because apparently we have quite a few who have reading difficulties.

They make assertions without evidence and nobody says anything. Talk about double standards. They have even started a thread for the brown arm gang. If they only knew how pathetic they are.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3986  Postby ronmcd » Oct 08, 2015 4:26 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:They have even started a thread for the brown arm gang.

I've no clue what's going on here. What's the brown arm gang, and what thread?

Seriously. No clue.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3987  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 08, 2015 4:32 pm

ronmcd wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:They have even started a thread for the brown arm gang.

I've no clue what's going on here. What's the brown arm gang, and what thread?

Seriously. No clue.


Ron I am going into that request sorry. The thread is well posted.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3988  Postby zerne » Oct 08, 2015 4:44 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:We are suffering from a group of people who consider themselves superior to other members especially those who have opposite views to theirs.

The arrogance is just appalling. Who in the hell do these people think they are. They are rife with snidey comments that would not be out of place in the gutter. They misrepresent anything which is opposite to their views. I explained fully my reasons for my comments time and time again because apparently we have quite a few who have reading difficulties.

They make assertions without evidence and nobody says anything. Talk about double standards. They have even started a thread for the brown arm gang. If they only knew how pathetic they are.


As someone who has read, but not participated, in this thread can I just say... no.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3989  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 08, 2015 5:01 pm

zerne wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:We are suffering from a group of people who consider themselves superior to other members especially those who have opposite views to theirs.

The arrogance is just appalling. Who in the hell do these people think they are. They are rife with snidey comments that would not be out of place in the gutter. They misrepresent anything which is opposite to their views. I explained fully my reasons for my comments time and time again because apparently we have quite a few who have reading difficulties.

They make assertions without evidence and nobody says anything. Talk about double standards. They have even started a thread for the brown arm gang. If they only knew how pathetic they are.


As someone who has read, but not participated, in this thread can I just say... no.


That is your assertion ofcourse.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3991  Postby Scot Dutchy » Oct 08, 2015 5:08 pm

ronmcd wrote:Ach well.


What is it laddie?
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3992  Postby Emmeline » Oct 08, 2015 5:20 pm

Good article by Stephen Kinnock today. I recommend all of it but I particularly like what he says about the working class vote:

Now is the time to renew, not retreat
(...) People simplistically say that, in order to win, Labour has to ‘reconnect with its working-class roots’, and that it is possible for us to gain votes by ‘moving to the left’. But a cursory glance at some basic statistics tells us such superficiality is nonsense. It is true that 45 years ago, manual workers and their families (the normal definition of working class) dominated our vote, accounting for 10 million Labour voters back in the early 1970s, compared with just two million middle-class Labour voters at that time.

In 2015, the composition of the British electorate, and of our vote, is completely different. In the early 1970s two thirds of all voters lived in working-class households, but in Britain today the number of middle-class voters exceeds the number of working-class voters by seven million. In addition to being substantially smaller in size than it was 40 years ago, the working class has been fragmented by de-industrialisation and the technology revolution, and so it is no longer possible to talk about it as some sort of monolithic bloc that can be mobilised around a given political cause. Indeed, it is patronising as well as illusory to do so.

It is therefore vitally important that we wake up to this new reality: we will never win another election if we attempt to present ourselves as a party that represents a narrowly defined social group. It is, quite simply, mathematically impossible.

http://labourlist.org/2015/10/now-is-th ... t-retreat/
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3993  Postby chairman bill » Oct 08, 2015 5:30 pm

Emmeline wrote:... Scot has been told to shut up and leave the discussion to others on the grounds that his posts aren't up to some arbitrary standard that doesn't apply to everyone else.


No. Scot has been asked why, if he's not interested in discussion, and he's already made up his mind about Corbyn, and if he's just going to post the same old bollocks about pipedreams, 1983, Foot & talking shops, why does he even bother? What is the point of his posting? He's not convicing anyone, he's not bringing enlightenment, he's not adding anything of worth, so why bother? Why continue to post here, if he's not going to engage? That is absolutely not telling him to shut up. Would some of us like it if he did? Yes. Equally, if he actually engaged in a discussion, that would be fine too. But while he keeps on & on about bloody talking shops, we'll carry on not being impressed & wondering when he'll piss off somewhere else.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3994  Postby Emmeline » Oct 08, 2015 5:47 pm

Other people make posts that don't convince anyone, that don't bring enlightenment, that add nothing of worth too IMO. It's subjective.

Why can't you just NOT READ his posts if they piss you off so much.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3995  Postby surreptitious57 » Oct 08, 2015 5:55 pm

Emmeline wrote:
Why cannot you just NOT READ his posts if they piss you off so much

No good as he needs to read them in order to get pissed off ha ha ha
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3996  Postby Emmeline » Oct 08, 2015 5:58 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Emmeline wrote:
Why cannot you just NOT READ his posts if they piss you off so much

No good as he needs to read them in order to get pissed off ha ha ha


Ah but apparently everyone knows in advance that Scot will have nothing worth reading so they can just skip his posts can't they.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3997  Postby Sendraks » Oct 08, 2015 6:11 pm

Emmeline wrote:Good article by Stephen Kinnock today. I recommend all of it but I particularly like what he says about the working class vote:

Now is the time to renew, not retreat
(...) People simplistically say that, in order to win, Labour has to ‘reconnect with its working-class roots’, and that it is possible for us to gain votes by ‘moving to the left’. But a cursory glance at some basic statistics tells us such superficiality is nonsense. It is true that 45 years ago, manual workers and their families (the normal definition of working class) dominated our vote, accounting for 10 million Labour voters back in the early 1970s, compared with just two million middle-class Labour voters at that time.

In 2015, the composition of the British electorate, and of our vote, is completely different. In the early 1970s two thirds of all voters lived in working-class households, but in Britain today the number of middle-class voters exceeds the number of working-class voters by seven million. In addition to being substantially smaller in size than it was 40 years ago, the working class has been fragmented by de-industrialisation and the technology revolution, and so it is no longer possible to talk about it as some sort of monolithic bloc that can be mobilised around a given political cause. Indeed, it is patronising as well as illusory to do so.

It is therefore vitally important that we wake up to this new reality: we will never win another election if we attempt to present ourselves as a party that represents a narrowly defined social group. It is, quite simply, mathematically impossible.

http://labourlist.org/2015/10/now-is-th ... t-retreat/


Interesting read.

The parts I struggle with are where they fixate on class, which is an entirely arbirtary distinction and also a bit too mathematically clinical. However, as this is just a stepping stone to saying "we need to reach out to as many people as possible" is perfectly sound. It doesn't say a great deal about this should be achieved mind you. But then, if I had the answers to how that could be done, I'd already be the campaign manager for the party which won the last election.

However, this isn't about the working class as the core vote or targetting the wider middle class - this is about working out what your electorate needs and wants. In particular, do you have anything to offer that 35% of the electorate who didn't vote, something that will motivate them to the polling both, what can Labour do to engage them?

The biggest worry I have in the article is this ongoing nonsense about devolving power to the regions. This still reeks of a westminister centric view that "we don't know how to run any country that isn't London +SE" and therefore rather than try to crack that nut, they'll just abdicate responsibility to the regions and then blame them for failing as they do nothing to stop more and more jobs and money being pulled into London.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3998  Postby Beatsong » Oct 08, 2015 6:34 pm

Emmeline wrote:Good article by Stephen Kinnock today. I recommend all of it but I particularly like what he says about the working class vote:

Now is the time to renew, not retreat
(...) People simplistically say that, in order to win, Labour has to ‘reconnect with its working-class roots’, and that it is possible for us to gain votes by ‘moving to the left’. But a cursory glance at some basic statistics tells us such superficiality is nonsense. It is true that 45 years ago, manual workers and their families (the normal definition of working class) dominated our vote, accounting for 10 million Labour voters back in the early 1970s, compared with just two million middle-class Labour voters at that time.

In 2015, the composition of the British electorate, and of our vote, is completely different. In the early 1970s two thirds of all voters lived in working-class households, but in Britain today the number of middle-class voters exceeds the number of working-class voters by seven million.

In addition to being substantially smaller in size than it was 40 years ago, the working class has been fragmented by de-industrialisation and the technology revolution, and so it is no longer possible to talk about it as some sort of monolithic bloc that can be mobilised around a given political cause. Indeed, it is patronising as well as illusory to do so.

It is therefore vitally important that we wake up to this new reality: we will never win another election if we attempt to present ourselves as a party that represents a narrowly defined social group. It is, quite simply, mathematically impossible.

http://labourlist.org/2015/10/now-is-th ... t-retreat/


It's certainly a valid observation, but it could easily be made to support the opposite conclusion by looking at it from the opposite POV: The Labour party has failed to appeal to the working class and to remain the obvious party for their vote, allowing their vote to become fragmented.

Also, who's trying to present Labour as a party that represents a narrowly defined social group? Most of the middle class have plenty to gain from free university tuition, nationalised railways and a better funded NHS. Kinnock's problem seems to be with the idea of Labour even including the working class.

It's testament to the success of the Thatcherite narrative that so many people assume that working class and middle class interests are innately opposed, so supporting one must mean compromising the other. Whereas nobody makes the same assumption about middle class and super-rich interests - even though in that case it would be justified.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#3999  Postby Strontium Dog » Oct 08, 2015 6:40 pm

Emmeline wrote:
Sendraks wrote:People trying to have a discussion, sometimes a little heated, and then Scot steps in and everything gets worse very quickly.


In which ways does it get worse?


He expresses an opinion that doesn't fit with the majority. Chilling stuff.

Must remember to dig up one of the Lib Dem or coalition threads so we can have some good examples of people shitting all over threads. Oddly enough, the same people complaining about Scot Dutchy's conduct in these Labour threads.
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Re: UK Labour Party Watch

#4000  Postby Strontium Dog » Oct 08, 2015 6:41 pm

mattthomas wrote:I think the term "can give it, but not take it" applies in many of the threads this conversation pertains to.


Oh boy, does it ever. But probably not in the way you think it does.
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