UK Labour Party Watch

ronmcd · **#3241** by **ronmcd** » Aug 30, 2015 8:59 am

Certainly more sensible than chasing Tory policies

ED209 · **#3242** by **ED209** » Aug 30, 2015 8:59 am

smudge wrote:
Strontium Dog wrote:The Labour Party's Dan Hodges tears Corbyn to pieces:

Dan Hodges couldn't tear his way out of a paper bag. I know you are 'never wrong' SD, but frankly, I couldn't care less what Dan Hodges thinks about anything. The fact you are a 'fan' I find unsurprising.

I wonder if Dan Hodges was allowed a vote in the Labour leadership contest? He is not a 'supporter' in any sense of the word that I recognise.

No surprise that strontium dog would claim to be impressed by false accusations of antisemitism, since he has been employing that exact same tactic in the ashley madison thread against cali for his criticism of corporate piggery, and with precisely zero success. If the idea was to scour the undergrowth of the tory press for a carrier bag full of damp used right-wing wankery, it must have been an astonishingly empty trawl if that was all that could be unearthed.

It's somewhat interesting that the torygraph are now so desperate to run attack pieces against corbyn. What happened to their 'fnar fnar let's all register and vote for corbyn'? Obviously, they are now terrified of him.

Again it's like the quote from the US trade unionist that is often misattributed to gandhi (because radicals have to be safely 'othered' for their wisdom to be palatable); first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win :coffee:

Strontium Dog · **#3243** by **Strontium Dog** » Aug 30, 2015 9:12 am

smudge wrote:Dan Hodges couldn't tear his way out of a paper bag. I know you are 'never wrong' SD, but frankly, I couldn't care less what Dan Hodges thinks about anything. The fact you are a 'fan' I find unsurprising.

Please do not concoct positions for me, I am not a "fan" of Dan Hodges, I merely think he raises some interesting and uncomfortable points in his article.

The fact that all hostile responses subsequent to my post haven't actually dealt with the points he raised, but instead feature infantile attacks like yours above, rather confirms that his article makes uncomfortable reading for Corbyn supporters.

smudge wrote:I wonder if Dan Hodges was allowed a vote in the Labour leadership contest? He is not a 'supporter' in any sense of the word that I recognise.

Yeah, his mother was only a Labour MP for 23 years :yawn:

ED209 · **#3244** by **ED209** » Aug 30, 2015 9:25 am

Because support for labour is matrilineal? :rofl:

No, only the most stupid unquestioningly adopt their parents' political and other beliefs. Everyone else does at least some thinking for themselves.

ronmcd · **#3245** by **ronmcd** » Aug 30, 2015 9:32 am

Strontium Dog wrote:
smudge wrote:Dan Hodges couldn't tear his way out of a paper bag. I know you are 'never wrong' SD, but frankly, I couldn't care less what Dan Hodges thinks about anything. The fact you are a 'fan' I find unsurprising.

Please do not concoct positions for me, I am not a "fan" of Dan Hodges, I merely think he raises some interesting and uncomfortable points in his article.

The fact that all hostile responses subsequent to my post haven't actually dealt with the points he raised, but instead feature infantile attacks like yours above, rather confirms that his article makes uncomfortable reading for Corbyn supporters.

smudge wrote:I wonder if Dan Hodges was allowed a vote in the Labour leadership contest? He is not a 'supporter' in any sense of the word that I recognise.

Yeah, his mother was only a Labour MP for 23 years

And Scottish Labour Leader Kezia Dugdale's dad is a pro independence SNP supporter who has been known to take her to task on twitter.

Your point is .... ?

Here's the just *lovely* Dan Hodges making an arse of himself when his Corbyn's an anti-semite attacks were rebuffed:

ED209 · **#3246** by **ED209** » Aug 30, 2015 9:41 am

ronmcd wrote:...
Here's the just *lovely* Dan Hodges making an arse of himself when his Corbyn's an anti-semite attacks were rebuffed:

Fucking hell, I'm actually taken aback by that naked hate speech :shock:

No wonder his ejaculations are so enthusiastically lapped up by the right-wing.

Emmeline · **#3247** by **Emmeline** » Aug 30, 2015 10:11 am

Beatsong wrote:
Emmeline wrote:Dan Jarvis has just published his report on the General Election outcome, focusing on UKIP v Labour. I haven't had time to read it all yet but would be interested in discussing it if anyone else reads it.
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/a ... 1440871372

Here's the Executive Summary...

So basically his conclusion is completely different to that of the Fabian Society then. Which one do you think is right?

In which way is his conclusion completely different?

ED209 · **#3248** by **ED209** » Aug 30, 2015 10:29 am

Jeremy Corbyn in Manchester: 'Welcome to the new mass movement of giving a toss about stuff'

“Jeremy has made it quite clear he doesn’t want to be prime minister, and nor does he think he will be.” Those were the words last month of Julie Reid, a Labour councillor in Manchester, who was trying, in her own curious way, to persuade Labour members in the city’s Withington constituency to endorse Jeremy Corbyn.

Withington ended up plumping for Yvette Cooper by some margin, but the enthusiasm for Corbyn in Manchester has since grown exponentially, along with much of the rest of the country.

On Saturday night Reid, along with actors Maxine Peake and Julie Hesmondhalgh, were among around 1,800 people to attend a Corbyn rally in the Sheridan Suite in the deprived Newton Heath area of the city. Earlier in the day the unassuming MP for Islington North had addressed a thousand-strong crowd in Derby and 1,700 in Sheffield. Eight-hundred of those couldn’t fit inside the Crucible theatre, causing Corbyn to perform twice, inside and out, before legging it to the station for his next engagement.

Outside the Manchester event, the Socialist Workers Party tried to sell newspapers to the substantial queue, mostly welcomed but occasionally harangued by the odd Labour member unhappy about their party being “hijacked” by the hard left. Inside, Norman Owen, former leader of the Liberal Democrats in Salford, was spotted buying a red Corbyn For Leader t-shirt....

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/the- ... ster-rally

Doomed!

OlivierK · **#3249** by **OlivierK** » Aug 30, 2015 10:44 am

Emmeline wrote:From the Dan Jarvis report:

Significantly large numbers of people are drawn to UKIP due to anxieties about immigration. The overwhelming majority of UKIP voters on May 7th ranked ‘controlling immigration’ as one of the most important issue facing the country (87%) and their own family (68%).

There is also overlap with concerns about the welfare system and benefit dependency. These have been consistently ranked amongst the biggest concerns of voters drawn to UKIP.

(...)the fear a Labour government would be ‘bossed around by Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish nationalists’ was the third biggest doubt UKIP voters had about voting Labour.

If Labour is going to win back UKIP voters (and the report says it HAS to in order to win in 2020), it will need to be very clear about its commitment to managing immigration, reforming the welfare system & not being too friendly towards the SNP. That isn't going to fly with the left-wing of the party and Corbyn supporters.

87% of people think immigration s a huge issue in part because the Tories put it front and centre of the national political conversation, and instead of Labour ripping them a new one and mockng them for wanting to run distractions from their attacks on the NHS, their shit economic record, etc what did they do? They put out me-too mugs and did everything they could to back the Tories' message.

Perhaps now that Corbyn's got people talking about borrowing or QE to invest, or renationalisng the railways, or scrapping Trident, or how left is "too far left" or whatever, immigration may not be top of everyone's list once the news cycles move on. Sure, it remain a big issue for some, but these "what's the most important issue for you?" surveys always end up heavily weighted to whatever the last month's newspaper headlines have been about.

mrjonno · **#3250** by **mrjonno** » Aug 30, 2015 10:47 am

surveys always end up heavily weighted to whatever the last month's newspaper headlines have been about.

True but as the newspapers are part of the political machine you need to accept that and adjust your political strategy accordingly, the Daily Mail should have more influence than unions in Labour party policy because quite simply the Daily Mail is infinitely more influential than unions are

OlivierK · **#3251** by **OlivierK** » Aug 30, 2015 11:03 am

Emmeline wrote:
smudge wrote:Prominent 'man of faith' who went galavanting off to war in search of imaginary 'weapons of mass destruction' (with intellectual heavyweight George Bush) accuses Jeremy Corbyn of 'Alice in Wonderland' politics.

Do you think he is taking the piss?
From the Guardian.
Thanks for boosting Jeremy's vote tally a little more Tony.

I'm not a big fan of Blair (mainly due to Iraq war) but a lot of what he says about Corbyn is right IMO.

I've just seen these tweets from Richard Dawkins re: that Blair article:
Tony Blair may be right about Corbyn. He was very wrong about Bush's pet war. But this sentence hits many nails on heads. Wish I'd said it. "... reason is an irritation, evidence a distraction, emotional impact is king and the only thing that counts is feeling good about it all."

But the irony is that Blair's position on this is entirely emotional, and treats facts as an irritation.

Two of his examples of why Corbyn's "Alice in Wonderland" policies would be an electoral disaster is that the SNP in Scotland and Tsipras in Greece were equally off with the fairies, and won landslide victories. How the fuck can you even engage with an argument like that?

Emmeline · **#3252** by **Emmeline** » Aug 30, 2015 11:06 am

OlivierK wrote:
Emmeline wrote:From the Dan Jarvis report:

Significantly large numbers of people are drawn to UKIP due to anxieties about immigration. The overwhelming majority of UKIP voters on May 7th ranked ‘controlling immigration’ as one of the most important issue facing the country (87%) and their own family (68%).

There is also overlap with concerns about the welfare system and benefit dependency. These have been consistently ranked amongst the biggest concerns of voters drawn to UKIP.

(...)the fear a Labour government would be ‘bossed around by Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish nationalists’ was the third biggest doubt UKIP voters had about voting Labour.

If Labour is going to win back UKIP voters (and the report says it HAS to in order to win in 2020), it will need to be very clear about its commitment to managing immigration, reforming the welfare system & not being too friendly towards the SNP. That isn't going to fly with the left-wing of the party and Corbyn supporters.

87% of people think immigration s a huge issue in part because the Tories put it front and centre of the national political conversation, and instead of Labour ripping them a new one and mockng them for wanting to run distractions from their attacks on the NHS, their shit economic record, etc what did they do? They put out me-too mugs and did everything they could to back the Tories' message.

Perhaps now that Corbyn's got people talking about borrowing or QE to invest, or renationalisng the railways, or scrapping Trident, or how left is "too far left" or whatever, immigration may not be top of everyone's list once the news cycles move on. Sure, it remain a big issue for some, but these "what's the most important issue for you?" surveys always end up heavily weighted to whatever the last month's newspaper headlines have been about.

I think that's being quite dismissive of people's genuine concerns. Immigration does bring problems (as well as many benefits) and those people finding it harder to get doctors' appointments, housing, jobs or school places aren't necessarily being bigoted or racist when they raise these issues.

Emmeline · **#3253** by **Emmeline** » Aug 30, 2015 11:09 am

mrjonno wrote:
surveys always end up heavily weighted to whatever the last month's newspaper headlines have been about.

True but as the newspapers are part of the political machine you need to accept that and adjust your political strategy accordingly, the Daily Mail should have more influence than unions in Labour party policy because quite simply the Daily Mail is infinitely more influential than unions are

You might have to adjust your strategy due to media influence but you shouldn't adjust your policy.

ronmcd · **#3254** by **ronmcd** » Aug 30, 2015 11:11 am

ED209 wrote:
ronmcd wrote:...
Here's the just *lovely* Dan Hodges making an arse of himself when his Corbyn's an anti-semite attacks were rebuffed:

Fucking hell, I'm actually taken aback by that naked hate speech

No wonder his ejaculations are so enthusiastically lapped up by the right-wing.

Astonishing, isn't it?

ED209 · **#3255** by **ED209** » Aug 30, 2015 11:12 am

Emmeline wrote:Immigration does bring problems (as well as many benefits) and those people finding it harder to get doctors' appointments, housing, jobs or school places aren't necessarily being bigoted or racist when they raise these issues.

None of those are problems of immigration. They are all the result of government under-investment, particularly by torydems and other morons who depress economic activity in the name of their religion of austerity.

ED209 · **#3256** by **ED209** » Aug 30, 2015 11:16 am

ronmcd wrote:
ED209 wrote:
ronmcd wrote:...
Here's the just *lovely* Dan Hodges making an arse of himself when his Corbyn's an anti-semite attacks were rebuffed:

Fucking hell, I'm actually taken aback by that naked hate speech

No wonder his ejaculations are so enthusiastically lapped up by the right-wing.

Astonishing, isn't it?

It's incredible, I thought the torygraph was still (more or less) trying to be a legitimate newspaper. Yet here we have its columnist abusing those who disagree with him, admitting he does so because of his cultural identity, and explicitly claiming he has the right to do so.

Wikipedia describes him as 'david cameron's favourite columnist'. No doubt others' too.

Emmeline · **#3257** by **Emmeline** » Aug 30, 2015 11:19 am

OlivierK wrote:
Emmeline wrote:
smudge wrote:Prominent 'man of faith' who went galavanting off to war in search of imaginary 'weapons of mass destruction' (with intellectual heavyweight George Bush) accuses Jeremy Corbyn of 'Alice in Wonderland' politics.

Do you think he is taking the piss?
From the Guardian.
Thanks for boosting Jeremy's vote tally a little more Tony.

I'm not a big fan of Blair (mainly due to Iraq war) but a lot of what he says about Corbyn is right IMO.

I've just seen these tweets from Richard Dawkins re: that Blair article:
Tony Blair may be right about Corbyn. He was very wrong about Bush's pet war. But this sentence hits many nails on heads. Wish I'd said it. "... reason is an irritation, evidence a distraction, emotional impact is king and the only thing that counts is feeling good about it all."

But the irony is that Blair's position on this is entirely emotional, and treats facts as an irritation.

Two of his examples of why Corbyn's "Alice in Wonderland" policies would be an electoral disaster is that the SNP in Scotland and Tsipras in Greece were equally off with the fairies, and won landslide victories. How the fuck can you even engage with an argument like that?

He's wrong about the SNP. They use reason & evidence and were very focused on winning seats.

Emmeline · **#3258** by **Emmeline** » Aug 30, 2015 11:25 am

ED209 wrote:
Emmeline wrote:Immigration does bring problems (as well as many benefits) and those people finding it harder to get doctors' appointments, housing, jobs or school places aren't necessarily being bigoted or racist when they raise these issues.

None of those are problems of immigration. They are all the result of government under-investment, particularly by torydems and other morons who depress economic activity in the name of their religion of austerity.

They are problems of immigration if you have a lot of people move into your area without the investment in local services. That's why people's concerns shouldn't be dismissed. Labour needs to be clear about how it will tackle those concerns and not do a Gordon Brown "bigoted woman" act.

OlivierK · **#3259** by **OlivierK** » Aug 30, 2015 11:38 am

Emmeline wrote:Immigration does bring problems (as well as many benefits) and those people finding it harder to get doctors' appointments, housing, jobs or school places aren't necessarily being bigoted or racist when they raise these issues.

Sure, but if Labour supinely respond to that by say "Yeah, we hear ya about those damned forrins.", then immigration is going to be cemented as a big issue for people.

If, instead, Labour has responded to people finding it harder to get doctors' appointments by smashing the Tories on their attacks on the NHS, responded to people finding it harder to finding housing by smashing the Tories record of underinvestment in social housing, and pursuit of policies to favour existing homeowners that have inflated the property price bubble locking first home buyers out, responded to people finding it harder to get a job by slamming austerity policies that contract the economy, and responded to people finding it harder to get school places by slamming the dog's breakfast Gove made of the education system, then perhaps people would (rightly) see the fucking Tories as a bigger threat to their interests, hopes and aspirations than immigrants.

ED209 · **#3260** by **ED209** » Aug 30, 2015 11:42 am

Emmeline wrote:
ED209 wrote:
Emmeline wrote:Immigration does bring problems (as well as many benefits) and those people finding it harder to get doctors' appointments, housing, jobs or school places aren't necessarily being bigoted or racist when they raise these issues.

None of those are problems of immigration. They are all the result of government under-investment, particularly by torydems and other morons who depress economic activity in the name of their religion of austerity.

They are problems of immigration if you have a lot of people move into your area without the investment in local services. That's why people's concerns shouldn't be dismissed. Labour needs to be clear about how it will tackle those concerns and not do a Gordon Brown "bigoted woman" act.

If you can't get a doctors' appt, house, job (FYI; immigration creates demand and jobs, but whatever) or school place then these are all wholly due to the lack of investment in local services.

Blaming immigrants is no more valid than blaming children for being born or the elderly for not dying soon enough. If your issues with immigration are things that could be helped by say, closing ambulance and A&E services for a week and letting nature take its course then they aren't issues with immigration but with local services. If they aren't issues with local services, but with immigration specifically then they probably are due to bigotry and that is ground best ceded to the tory parties.

ETA: that all said the torydems set themselves a net migration target and missed it by miles. Now the continuity tory govt is still missing it, by miles. The notion that labour will get in by promising to deliver torydem policies - except more competently than the torydems themselves are capable of doing - is risible.

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