Jie wrote:

Agrippina wrote:

Jie wrote:

hackenslash wrote:What's not to agree with? Can they actually possess this knowledge they claim as truth?

No, but it is certainly possible for them to think that they do. As I understand it, lying implies having the knowledge that what you're saying is wrong as you're saying it. I could be wrong...

What about people who are taught lies as "truth" but believe that what they're told is the truth? Are they liars?

I would think not. They lack the intention to deceive. That was the point I was trying to get across.

This is an assertion that is in need of test.

Aern Rakesh wrote:
Scott wasn't proposing being indifferent, he was suggesting the response should be "It's about time!" That's not indifference, that's akin to saying "well you've been an idiot all this time, what took you so long to wake up?"

I don't read it the way you do.

I didn't think that was the welcome we generally extended to people who come to the lifeboat. But maybe I need to be more meh about the place, and not give a damn about other people here.

I think the welcoming committee should offer a warm welcome. It's great if you want to be a part of it because it makes it easy for new members to want to join in discussions. I see that. Kudos to you (no sarcasm or facetiousness intended). But you should also respect those of us, who for own reasons, may not be so cuddly.

ElDiablo wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote:
Scott wasn't proposing being indifferent, he was suggesting the response should be "It's about time!" That's not indifference, that's akin to saying "well you've been an idiot all this time, what took you so long to wake up?"

I don't read it the way you do.

I didn't think that was the welcome we generally extended to people who come to the lifeboat. But maybe I need to be more meh about the place, and not give a damn about other people here.

I think the welcoming committee should offer a warm welcome. It's great if you want to be a part of it because it makes it easy for new members to want to join in discussions. I see that. Kudos to you (no sarcasm or facetiousness intended). But you should also respect those of us, who for own reasons, may not be so cuddly.

I think I need to be clear about this. In general, in the welcoming new members forum, members here are very welcoming, and wait until an individual starts posting something outrageous before having a go at him or her.

In the case of this guy, the---how should I put it---"pre-reception" has been, on the whole, cynical and scathing, with only a few people prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. And this is after 1) he specifically said that he wanted to spend this year getting to know ordinary atheists and 2) Hack sent him an invitation to join our forum!

My feeling was that if he read this thread before joining, which he can certainly do as it is publically accessible, he wouldn't, if he had any sense, touch the place with a bargepole.

That's all.

Aern Rakesh wrote: and 2) Hack sent him an invitation to join our forum!

I think someone has hijacked part of Hack's brain. He has seemed a bit warm and fuzzy lately.

ElDiablo wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote: and 2) Hack sent him an invitation to join our forum!

I think someone has hijacked part of Hack's brain. He has seemed a bit warm and fuzzy lately.

Well he may have seemed that way in his invitation, but I think he might have been looking for a new chew toy. But that's just me making an educated guess...

Aern Rakesh wrote:

ElDiablo wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote: and 2) Hack sent him an invitation to join our forum!

I think someone has hijacked part of Hack's brain. He has seemed a bit warm and fuzzy lately.

Well he may have seemed that way in his invitation, but I think he might have been looking for a new chew toy. But that's just me making an educated guess...

His responses in several creationist threads have shown much more patience with the chew toys.

ElDiablo wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote:

ElDiablo wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote: and 2) Hack sent him an invitation to join our forum!

I think someone has hijacked part of Hack's brain. He has seemed a bit warm and fuzzy lately.

Well he may have seemed that way in his invitation, but I think he might have been looking for a new chew toy. But that's just me making an educated guess...

His responses in several creationist threads have shown much more patience with the chew toys.

Ah. I'll take you're word for it, because I don't go there.

Calilasseia wrote:

Jie wrote:

Agrippina wrote:

Jie wrote:

No, but it is certainly possible for them to think that they do. As I understand it, lying implies having the knowledge that what you're saying is wrong as you're saying it. I could be wrong...

What about people who are taught lies as "truth" but believe that what they're told is the truth? Are they liars?

I would think not. They lack the intention to deceive. That was the point I was trying to get across.

This is an assertion that is in need of test.

This is a remark that is in need of elaboration.
If I understood correctly, Agrippina was asking whether people who really believed what they were told and passed it on to others, were lying. Under my definition of lying (the act of saying as true that which the sayer knows to be false), that would not be the case.
Is the problem my definition of lying? What else would you have it include?

To me doing the societal politeness thing is lying. When people say "isn't this glorious weather" when it's hot, and humid and uncomfortable, isn't calling it "glorious" lying? Maybe some people really do feel the temperature differently to others, some people prefer hot to cold weather, but do people actually like really hot, humid weather (like 35 deg C)? I don't think so, but again, that's my point of view, so I could be completely wrong and there really are people who think it is glorious, still I don't know why they can't say "I'm loving this hot weather, do you like it?" When they say "It's glorious," and I say "no it's too hot," then I'm the bad guy for not agreeing that their idea of "glorious" is valid, so I say "yes!" But I'm lying, aren't I?

Actually I know people here who would think 35 C heat *was* glorious, especially if there were blue skies. I wouldn't, but I do know people who like the heat.

Aern Rakesh wrote:Actually I know people here who would think 35 C heat *was* glorious, especially if there were blue skies. I wouldn't, but I do know people who like the heat.

I do too. I don't understand why I should lie about summer being a better season because people get offended when I say I prefer the cold, but apparently it's good manners to say "yes, it's a lovely day," when I'm dying of the heat.

Agrippina wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote:Actually I know people here who would think 35 C heat *was* glorious, especially if there were blue skies. I wouldn't, but I do know people who like the heat.

I do too. I don't understand why I should lie about summer being a better season because people get offended when I say I prefer the cold, but apparently it's good manners to say "yes, it's a lovely day," when I'm dying of the heat.

I say I prefer the cold all the time! Well, probably not as cold as they've got it in the States now. Sunny and 20degC with a breeze is just perfect.

Aern Rakesh wrote:

Agrippina wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote:Actually I know people here who would think 35 C heat *was* glorious, especially if there were blue skies. I wouldn't, but I do know people who like the heat.

I do too. I don't understand why I should lie about summer being a better season because people get offended when I say I prefer the cold, but apparently it's good manners to say "yes, it's a lovely day," when I'm dying of the heat.

I say I prefer the cold all the time! Well, probably not as cold as they've got it in the States now. Sunny and 20degC with a breeze is just perfect.

For me too. That's "glorious" to me. It's been boiling hot here for two weeks now. I have blisters on my tongue from biting it when people tell me about how wonderfully glorious the heat is. On Wednesday night when I drove to the hospital, I had to drive through mist and drizzle, now that was glorious -- glorious that I didn't crash the car. Since then it's been much cooler. Right now I have the doors open and it's raining. There's a lovely cool breeze blowing through the house, this is glorious weather.

Jie wrote:

hackenslash wrote:What's not to agree with? Can they actually possess this knowledge they claim as truth?

No, but it is certainly possible for them to think that they do. As I understand it, lying implies having the knowledge that what you're saying is wrong as you're saying it. I could be wrong...

Nonsense. They know full well that this can't be classified as knowledge, which is why they tell you it takes faith. It doesn't matter that it's provably incorrect, just that they are fully aware that what they have is faith, not knowledge.

They're lying.

Aern Rakesh wrote:

ElDiablo wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote: and 2) Hack sent him an invitation to join our forum!

I think someone has hijacked part of Hack's brain. He has seemed a bit warm and fuzzy lately.

Well he may have seemed that way in his invitation, but I think he might have been looking for a new chew toy. But that's just me making an educated guess...

Neither. My intent was to give him a proper venue for his experiment, and some proper guidance. If his stated intent is accurate, namely that he's going to try on being an atheist, then he should learn to do it properly.

hackenslash wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote:

ElDiablo wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote: and 2) Hack sent him an invitation to join our forum!

I think someone has hijacked part of Hack's brain. He has seemed a bit warm and fuzzy lately.

Well he may have seemed that way in his invitation, but I think he might have been looking for a new chew toy. But that's just me making an educated guess...

Neither. My intent was to give him a proper venue for his experiment, and some proper guidance. If his stated intent is accurate, namely that he's going to try on being an atheist, then he should learn to do it properly.

I just had an image rush through my head of the Cowardly Lion clutching his tail and moaning "I don't believe in gods, I don't believe in gods, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't believe in gods"

hackenslash wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote:

ElDiablo wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote: and 2) Hack sent him an invitation to join our forum!

I think someone has hijacked part of Hack's brain. He has seemed a bit warm and fuzzy lately.

Well he may have seemed that way in his invitation, but I think he might have been looking for a new chew toy. But that's just me making an educated guess...

Neither. My intent was to give him a proper venue for his experiment, and some proper guidance. If his stated intent is accurate, namely that he's going to try on being an atheist, then he should learn to do it properly.

See, warm and fuzzy.

hackenslash wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote:

ElDiablo wrote:

Aern Rakesh wrote: and 2) Hack sent him an invitation to join our forum!

I think someone has hijacked part of Hack's brain. He has seemed a bit warm and fuzzy lately.

Well he may have seemed that way in his invitation, but I think he might have been looking for a new chew toy. But that's just me making an educated guess...

Neither. My intent was to give him a proper venue for his experiment, and some proper guidance. If his stated intent is accurate, namely that he's going to try on being an atheist, then he should learn to do it properly.

You cant learn to be an atheist.

You are given it value which it does not have. That is the whole point. Atheism is nothing. Everything else is added to it.

Try to be an atheist! What a load of crap. Sorry Hack but that is so wrong. We are not a testing ground.

I agree with the chew toy idea. Some people here seem to love to pages of space on these theists that come along here just to annoy.

If you want to give up religion, and feel that you don't believe in your deity, then perhaps learning would involve why the belief in the deity is invalid and what evidence there is for the deity. I didn't believe in gods when I joined RDF, but since then I've acquired a whole lot of knowledge that's confirmed my original thought that gods were non-existent.

You cant learn to be an atheist. It is not a belief system.

To talk of valid and invalid is wrong IMO. It is the same as theists say we are non believers which is wrong.

You are back to the what is negative and what is positive arguments.

With atheism they do not exist.