Agrippina wrote:I know people say they "believe" but in their heads, personally when they're alone in the dark, do they actually say to themselves, "I really, really believe!" Or is it just cant to get people to listen to them? I've asked this question of believers and they say they really do believe that God as they define him, really, really exists.

I certainly believed when I was a kid, even if I did notice that there were things that seemed to make no sense - simply put, I believed that God existed, I just thought the discrepancies and contradictions and the like were the result of human error.

Agrippina wrote:I know people say they "believe" but in their heads, personally when they're alone in the dark, do they actually say to themselves, "I really, really believe!" Or is it just cant to get people to listen to them? I've asked this question of believers and they say they really do believe that God as they define him, really, really exists.

Plenty say they believe as a part of a belt and braces construction. I agree Aggie it is still a head and heart thing.

There are enough people who just follow because it is easier due their social position and location. Coming out would create for them too many problems.

Goldenmane wrote:

Agrippina wrote:I know people say they "believe" but in their heads, personally when they're alone in the dark, do they actually say to themselves, "I really, really believe!" Or is it just cant to get people to listen to them? I've asked this question of believers and they say they really do believe that God as they define him, really, really exists.

I certainly believed when I was a kid, even if I did notice that there were things that seemed to make no sense - simply put, I believed that God existed, I just thought the discrepancies and contradictions and the like were the result of human error.

A little like reading your horoscope and thinking "well that looks good today, no surprises." Then you forget all about it and some time in the future you read your horoscope again. Just there use, don't use it. That's how I think most people feel about their religion. It's not an intense "I'm a believer" thing, it's more like a habit, or something you just do because you just do it, it doesn't really mean anything. The intense believers, they're the people who come knocking at doors. I think these people have psychological problems that believing helps to feel better.

Agrippina wrote:I know people say they "believe" but in their heads, personally when they're alone in the dark, do they actually say to themselves, "I really, really believe!" Or is it just cant to get people to listen to them? I've asked this question of believers and they say they really do believe that God as they define him, really, really exists.

I’m coming in to this a bit late and right now I don’t have time to read 13 pages... however to address your point.

When I was a fundie it wasn’t a matter of “belief”, (at first yes, but not later on) it was a matter of knowing; as in 100% knowledge of an absolute actual fact.

It would be like trying to convince someone that you loved your spouse. Regardless of what one does or says, it’s simply impossible to prove it to anyone else since all of the outward signs could be easily be faked, but you know in your heart that your love is as true as true can be.

In our congregation we never said that we believed in God, in the sense of perhaps or possibly, we said that God existed and we knew that for a fact. I suppose belief (knowing) could be on a sliding scale from 1 to 10. I was a 10. I knew that God existed as surely as I knew that the sun would rise every morning. I had zero doubts because (wait for this one!) I had seen Jesus in person. Yes, I really did!

When I was born again he appeared in my room. That incidentally, was not totally uncommon. A select number of people in my congregation had seen visions too but only “true” believers got to see them.

When I next went to church and told the congregation that Jesus had appeared to me I was met with a shower of PRAISE the LORD! There was not even one doubting or questioning eye in the building.

Having actually seen Jesus: any doubts that could have ever crossed my mind were a thing of the past. I simply had proof positive that God exists.

Skinny, I don't understand the "blind faith" and unquestioning belief. I see it in other people, and not only about religion, about other things: the zodiac, homeopathy, acupuncture, etc. I suppose it's because I always ask "why" and insist that things are explained to me, that I simply can't understand that other people can believe without asking.

Last year around this time of the year, Ryan Bell, a pastor for 19 years, decided to see what it was living without god was like to give atheism a shot for a year. He's continuing his journey and even has a blog on patheos. Good for him.


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/yearwithoutgod/

http://www.npr.org/2014/12/27/373298310/after-year-of-atheism-former-pastor-i-dont-think-god-exists

The year has come and gone and the year without God has shown this pastor that God does not likely exist

http://www.npr.org/2014/12/27/373298310 ... god-exists

Well that's good news.

From the link...

Former Pastor Ryan Bell wrote:... One of his biggest lessons from the year is "that people very much value certainty and knowing and are uncomfortable saying that they don't know."

Now he thinks certainty is a bit overrated.

"I think before I wanted a closer relationship to God and today I just want a closer relationship with reality," Bell says.

See, miracles really do happen at Christmas! Happy to admit I was wrong about him.

Excellent!

This is what reasonable people do. They test the hypothesis. It's too bad the church, at least the one I grew up with, threatened eternal damnation for questioning. Whether the experiment worked out or not, he was damned to hell anyway.

Willie71 wrote:This is what reasonable people do. They test the hypothesis. It's too bad the church, at least the one I grew up with, threatened eternal damnation for questioning. Whether the experiment worked out or not, he was damned to hell anyway.

Well, not if he repented of his questioning and recommitted his life to unquestioning faith.

He could defile the corpses of a thousand murdered babies and not face hell if he repents before he dies. Such is the nature of Divine Justice and Grace.

Well, I'm pleased for the chap but I guess it's possible that he's playing the long game, with miraculous occurrences and renewed faith and certainty on the horizon. Perhaps I just have an over-active suspicion gene?

Skinny Puppy wrote:

When I was born again he appeared in my room. That incidentally, was not totally uncommon. A select number of people in my congregation had seen visions too but only “true” believers got to see them.

Wow, I never knew that! When I was a Xian I always wanted to experience something like that, but got to experience sod-all. Have you written an account of it somewhere on the forum?

trubble76 wrote:Well, I'm pleased for the chap but I guess it's possible that he's playing the long game, with miraculous occurrences and renewed faith and certainty on the horizon. Perhaps I just have an over-active suspicion gene?

That is my POV. This is an after-life experience for him. Bet you he will say been there done that and god exists.

Living without a god, I get - everyone does it all the time, whether they realise it or not. But what does it mean for someone who believes in a deity, to 'live without god' for a period of time? If you believe, you still believe. If you don't believe, you're already living without a god, so what's the big deal?

I could try 'living with god' for a year, but it would be meaningless, because I still wouldn't believe in one. If it means engaging in the outward practices, well I could do that, but to what end? And in this pastor's case, giving up on prayer (which never worked anyway) & singing hymns & all the associated bollocks, isn't atheism, it's just theism without the bells & smells.

^^^
I think it was more than that for him. He actively questioned the validity of his beliefs and sought out conversations with atheists.

I can sort of identify with him in that in my early twenties after reading about mythology. philosophy, and history, I came to a point in my life where I asked what would it be like to live without this idea of a loving and protective god that my parents imparted on me. Would life change for the worse once I rejected the insurance policy? If anything, it was an experiment, since I didn't know what was going to happen and wanted my experience to inform me.

Rejecting the belief was like turning off a light switch. It was off, but I could always go back and turn it on if I needed. After a while I realized I didn't need the light switch at all and removed it from the circuit.

Well watching that video, it seems that he has moved from theism to agnostic atheism. He says so explicitly and there seems to be no reason not to take him at his word.