Mazille wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:

Those would be the sort of people who ended up under the Guillotine in the Third Reich. Admirable, but still dead.

This is the sort of thing that gives history teachers a bad name.

Pardon me? If you mean that I somehow mixed up the French Revolution and the Third Reich you would be very wrong. As Ian Tattum said, the Nazis did like them some old school beheadings. Famous members of the resistance group Weiße Rose, Sophie and Hans Scholl, for example were beheaded with a guillotine. As were members of Stauffenberg's conspiracy and several thousand others.


Do inform yourself before you get snarky, mate.

Apologies offered.

"3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?"

Yes, certainly. I don't act out a role as a atheist anyway, so I lose nothing and have all to gain. I am not an immoral man though, if money was set aside for a just cause I wouldn't pipe up to 'steal' it unless I felt I was going hungry.

Interesting replies.

1. Would you marry/spend your life with a person of a different religion? If yes, would you participate in your spouse's religious rituals as a form of tolerance, or would you firmly oppose performing such rituals, considering them hypocritical acts?

For the first part, depends on the person and the form of belief. Mild, vague or cultural religious stuff doesn't bother me. I have good friends who are wishy-washy religious, so I suppose it could happen that I met someone like that and the relationship becomes some sort of pairing. Hasn't happened yet, mind you, but never say never. As for the second part, that also depends on the specifics. Heck, I even continue my own cultural religious traditions such as Christmas decorations, feasts & prezzies and whatnot. It's fun. Don't have a problem with other social event types of rituals, either. Bowing and scraping is not going to happen, though.

2. Do you feel as if your atheism is a defining trait for you? By this I mean, do you consider your atheism as one of your main characteristics? Having answered the previous question, do you think that other people would say that your atheism is a defining trait for you?

First part: Not a "defining" trait, I think. One of a bunch that makes up the whole. Second part: I doubt it. It's not like it's a huge topic of interest or discussion to most people I hang around with.

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

Like some others, I'm hard pressed to imagine a scenario in my life where that would apply. If by some horrifying circumstance I ever found myself facing destitution or death for being atheist (and again, depending on circumstances), probably. As an aside, because of the nature of my lack of belief - it's just there, and has always been there - I've pondered the possibility of it being a genetic element and some of my ancestors having to suck it up to survive and thrive and reproduce over the ages Here's to them if that's what happened!

Lentes wrote:1. Would you marry/spend your life with a person of a different religion? If yes, would you participate in your spouse's religious rituals as a form of tolerance, or would you firmly oppose performing such rituals, considering them hypocritical acts?

It wouldn't be a problem from me. As other posters have said, it could be - most probably would be - a difficult relationship, but if she is OK with my views and respects me for who I am, I couldn't care less what her beliefs are.

No, I want no religion whatsoever. I am prepared to go to weddings, funerals and stuff of the like based more on the social aspect than the religious (I don now and I am single) but I wouldn't partake on the day to day mundane and pointless religious worshipping.

Lentes wrote:2. Do you feel as if your atheism is a defining trait for you? By this I mean, do you consider your atheism as one of your main characteristics? Having answered the previous question, do you think that other people would say that your atheism is a defining trait for you?

I never talk about my atheism or religion unless it is to challenge an obnoxious and proselytising believer, in that case I will become very vocal and argue my point respectfully. I would do the same to someone who is obnoxious about his believe in aliens visiting us or the lizard people controlling our governments. Is my alien scepticism and lizard conspiracy denial a "defining trait"? I would say it is as much defining as my atheism, i.e. NO. Do other people think it is? Cannot say, I'd imagine not.

Lentes wrote:And most importantly:

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

It depends what you mean by "social gain". I will not correct a randomer that strikes conversation with me assuming that I am religious, just on the basis that I couldn't be bother to give strangers explanations. I would probably keep all small talk general and if that other people have the belief that I am religious then why should I care?

Would I consciously say I am a <insert religion> just to gain something? Depends on the circumstances. Would I say I am a catholic if I thought there would be bigger chance of landing the job? Yes, why would that make me a hypocrite? I am just playing the system and taking advantage of other people's prejudices.As a rule of thumb, if the gain is substantial (Or the loss from not pretending to be religious) and as long as no other people loose out then yes I probably would pretend to be a man of god, though I couldn't become a preacher and defraud vulnerable and naive people out of their money.

Briton wrote:

Steve wrote:

Briton wrote:I did lie about my lack of belief for financial gain when I went to Saudi Arabia. Mind you, it was that trip that that made me a militant secularist and I wouldn't do it again (barring exceptional circumstances).

But were your beliefs in anyway relevant to your job? I am struggling to come up with a scenario where it matters. So I would have no problem letting them believe what ever they like.

I was told I wouldn't have been given the job had I put atheist on the application form.

Surely that is illegal!?

In Britain? I should coco. It's not even compulasory to answer questions like that on an application form.

Religious discrimination in the workplace and training

You are protected from religious discrimination in your workplace. This means you are protected:

whatever your religion or belief
whatever your employer's religion or belief
whether you are already working for your employer
whether you are applying for a job.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/discrimination_e/discrimination_discrimination_because_of_race_religion_or_belief_e/discrimination_because_of_religion_or_belief.htm

Edit: Oh, just noticed it was Saudi Arabia not Britain. Explains everything.

Lentes wrote:Hello everyone,

So these questions are posed to atheists and agnostics in this board.

Clearly you have a well-defined position in the philosophical discussion of the possibility of the universe being created by some set of creators. However, your philosophical position implies nothing other than the position itself. In light of this problem, I would like to see your answers to the following social problems that may arise. Particularly, I urge you to read my question 3, which in my opinion is the main one. I will also provide my answers as a fellow atheist/agnostic:

1. Would you marry/spend your life with a person of a different religion? If yes, would you participate in your spouse's religious rituals as a form of tolerance, or would you firmly oppose performing such rituals, considering them hypocritical acts?

I did this last year. I'm an atheist and she's a Mormon. I go to church with her on Sundays, but I often don't stay beyond the sacrament meeting because that way things are less likely to get awkward.

2. Do you feel as if your atheism is a defining trait for you? By this I mean, do you consider your atheism as one of your main characteristics? Having answered the previous question, do you think that other people would say that your atheism is a defining trait for you?

Absolutely not. I am the same person as an atheist that I was as a theist- minus the cognitive dissonance.

And most importantly:

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

I would if I were in prison. Otherwise, I would not.

Lentes wrote:Hello everyone,

So these questions are posed to atheists and agnostics in this board.

Clearly you have a well-defined position in the philosophical discussion of the possibility of the universe being created by some set of creators. However, your philosophical position implies nothing other than the position itself. In light of this problem, I would like to see your answers to the following social problems that may arise. Particularly, I urge you to read my question 3, which in my opinion is the main one. I will also provide my answers as a fellow atheist/agnostic:

1. Would you marry/spend your life with a person of a different religion? If yes, would you participate in your spouse's religious rituals as a form of tolerance, or would you firmly oppose performing such rituals, considering them hypocritical acts?

My answer: Supposing I wanted to marry, then yes, religion wouldn't be a problem. Also to my second question: Yes, except for the stuff that is way too drastic, such as not eating beef or pork, etc.

Nope, it's a deal-breaker. I wouldn't waste my time living with someone who believed in some or other religion.

2. Do you feel as if your atheism is a defining trait for you? By this I mean, do you consider your atheism as one of your main characteristics? Having answered the previous question, do you think that other people would say that your atheism is a defining trait for you?

My answer: No to the first question, yes to the second question. I tend to be quite outspoken about my position whenever such a situation is presented, and because of this, I think a lot of my religious friends/family think of me as a "stereotypical" atheist.

No.
I'm not defined by the things I don't believe in. I don't believe in unicorns either, no one thinks of me as a aunicornist.

The only people who judge my disbelief, are the people who feel stupid about their own belief when they talk rubbish and I tell them why it's rubbish.

And most importantly:

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

My answer: This is the hard one for me, because even though I personally value honesty very highly with respect to my own pursuit of truth and knowledge, I will not pretend as if I wouldn't conceal (or outright lie about) my true beliefs to obtain some personal gain. Does this make me a hypocrit? In the past, I certainly would have considered myself highly immoral for this, when I used to be a lot more Kantian. But these days I feel like such judgements are so trivial and ill-conceived from the get-go that I don't really care about such paper morality anymore. I care most about the consequences these days I guess, and I know that a couple years ago I would think somebody as myself would be highly immoral, selfish, and robotic even. Oh well.

So what are your answers?

During Apartheid, there was a very real threat that my kids would be removed from me if I publicly announced, i.e. to the school that we were a family of atheists. So I just wrote CofE (Church of England as opposed to Anglican Church which is the more common version of the English church in SA). Saying that made me "untouchable" because there aren't as many "high" church people here as there are Anglicans. So they left me alone.

I wouldn't do that unless there was a very real threat of persecution. Certainly not for money. Which is why I don't think that lying is a big issue. I would lie to save my life, or to protect myself from persecution. My life, the only opportunity I'm going to have to enjoy living here, is very important to me, so I care more about living than I do about being found out to be lying about religion.

I don't have to do that now because we have freedom and tolerance for all religions, or non-religion, here no. So no need to lie.

Lentes wrote:
1. Would you marry/spend your life with a person of a different religion? If yes, would you participate in your spouse's religious rituals as a form of tolerance, or would you firmly oppose performing such rituals, considering them hypocritical acts?

My OH is a vague deist; anyone with stronger religious impulses would find my iconoclasm unpalatable and I should certainly have lost patience with him very early on in our relationship. So no. If I attend any religious service - a wedding, for example - I stand and sit at the appropriate times to be courteous to my hosts but that's as much as I'm prepared to do.

2. Do you feel as if your atheism is a defining trait for you? By this I mean, do you consider your atheism as one of your main characteristics? Having answered the previous question, do you think that other people would say that your atheism is a defining trait for you?

No. As Aggie says, I'm not defined by that which I don't believe. Others might describe me as an inveterate sceptic in all supernatural matters, perhaps.

And most importantly:

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

No, no and thrice no! Luckily I live in a country that has stopped burning people at the stake: in former times I suppose I might have gone along with the charade to avoid torture and death.

Yep, that's pretty much what I do. Unless it's a JW wedding then I won't go. I refuse to sit through a service where one person promises to "respect" another person, and the other person doesn't reciprocate with the same promise.

I'm more likely to be identified as a vegetarian than an atheist. People are far more upset about my not wanting to eat meat.

True for me too. I realised I'd made a mistake with that one when a CofE priest came to see me in the hospital and I came clean about lying. The priest was very nice about it. Said lying wasn't very nice, but he understood my reasons for it, then we got into an anti-government discussion instead. we found common ground.

Agrippina wrote:Yep, that's pretty much what I do. Unless it's a JW wedding then I won't go. I refuse to sit through a service where one person promises to "respect" another person, and the other person doesn't reciprocate with the same promise.

I'm more likely to be identified as a vegetarian than an atheist. People are far more upset about my not wanting to eat meat.

True for me too. I realised I'd made a mistake with that one when a CofE priest came to see me in the hospital and I came clean about lying. The priest was very nice about it. Said lying wasn't very nice, but he understood my reasons for it, then we got into an anti-government discussion instead. we found common ground.

Is it due to moral or health reasons that you don't eat meat? If the former, do you believe the world would be an overall better place if everyone became a vegetarian?

Can I ask a question of the various people who say they would never pretend to be a theist for any purpose? Why?

Atheism isn't a belief, it's not worth dying for, what possible reason would you have for not just pretending?

Edit: Just to add, that if this sounds too confrontational it isn't intended to be, I realise that people may simply have interpreted the question differently and thus omitted to specify if they would, I am merely curious as to if anyone really does value their atheism above their life and if so, why?

Thommo wrote:Can I ask a question of the various people who say they would never pretend to be a theist for any purpose? Why?

Atheism isn't a belief, it's not worth dying for, what possible reason would you have for not just pretending?

I second this question! Steve responded a few posts ago that "the truth sets you free", but that's a little too vague.

Lentes wrote:1. Would you marry/spend your life with a person of a different religion? If yes, would you participate in your spouse's religious rituals as a form of tolerance, or would you firmly oppose performing such rituals, considering them hypocritical acts?

I can't see myself doing that, though it's not impossible. Problems can arise when it comes to kids and how to raise them. One exception could be if the other person involved had a particular weak faith, but even then I'm a bit too wary to be able to commit to them.

Lentes wrote:2. Do you feel as if your atheism is a defining trait for you? By this I mean, do you consider your atheism as one of your main characteristics? Having answered the previous question, do you think that other people would say that your atheism is a defining trait for you?

I don't consider it defining, and neither do the people I know (other than my extremely religious step-mother). I tend to keep quiet about not believing in the existence of gods, but not due to fear or what have you. It just doesn't get brought up all that often.

Lentes wrote:3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

Oh, totally. I was born in an area that is pretty accepting of my non-belief, and into an extended family that shares in that non-belief or doesn't care too much to begin with. As such, even if I had to pretend to be a believer, it wouldn't be hard or isolating. Plus I love singing, and I miss communal singing, so I could I still be happy with repressing that small part of me.

I will state that I won't search or put in much effort for a monetary or societal gain based on pretending to be a believer. If something fell into my lap, though, it's very likely that I'd seize that opportunity.

I wonder if we ask the new dude Hassan Rouhani if it is OK to have a few atheist meet-ups in Iran? He seems like an awfully nice chap. And if he was not cool with it, how many of you would still hold public meets in Iran?

Lentes wrote:

Agrippina wrote:Yep, that's pretty much what I do. Unless it's a JW wedding then I won't go. I refuse to sit through a service where one person promises to "respect" another person, and the other person doesn't reciprocate with the same promise.

I'm more likely to be identified as a vegetarian than an atheist. People are far more upset about my not wanting to eat meat.

True for me too. I realised I'd made a mistake with that one when a CofE priest came to see me in the hospital and I came clean about lying. The priest was very nice about it. Said lying wasn't very nice, but he understood my reasons for it, then we got into an anti-government discussion instead. we found common ground.

Is it due to moral or health reasons that you don't eat meat? If the former, do you believe the world would be an overall better place if everyone became a vegetarian?

Moral reasons. I think it's immoral to kill sentient beings just so we can eat them or wear their skins.

I don't "believe" the world would be "better." I think it would be better if more people thought about the morality of their actions, whatever they are. I don't judge people for eating meat, or for anything else they do. I simply try to show by example that being kinder to other animals, and my environment, is better for me, the other animals, and the environment. So I try to leave the places I visit a little nicer than they were when I arrived, and I try to be kind to all the animals I meet.

Thommo wrote:Can I ask a question of the various people who say they would never pretend to be a theist for any purpose? Why?

Atheism isn't a belief, it's not worth dying for, what possible reason would you have for not just pretending?

Edit: Just to add, that if this sounds too confrontational it isn't intended to be, I realise that people may simply have interpreted the question differently and thus omitted to specify if they would, I am merely curious as to if anyone really does value their atheism above their life and if so, why?

No. The question mentioned financial or social gain, and I interpreted that as quite a few steps below my life being at stake. I would probably lie to keep myself alive and would definitely lie to keep my family alive.

Thommo wrote:Can I ask a question of the various people who say they would never pretend to be a theist for any purpose? Why?

Atheism isn't a belief, it's not worth dying for, what possible reason would you have for not just pretending?

Edit: Just to add, that if this sounds too confrontational it isn't intended to be, I realise that people may simply have interpreted the question differently and thus omitted to specify if they would, I am merely curious as to if anyone really does value their atheism above their life and if so, why?

I'm not sure if I'm part of the target audience for your question, Thommo, as I remarked that I would have pretended belief in order to save my skin. Assuming I am, as I stated that I would never pretend belief for financial gain, it's just that I despise hypocrisy and affecting religious conviction would stick in my craw.

Blip, under Apartheid, you didn't have to pretend "religious conviction" you merely had to state some sort of affiliation. I think it was more to say that the country was a "Christian" state than anything else. Most places seemed to accept "agnostic" but hospitals and schools insisted that wandering snake oil salespeople had to do the rounds of the wards, to validate their wandering around the wards I suppose. Schools taught RI, and they didn't have an option for kids who didn't have religion. When I went to school, I said I was Jewish, that was until someone thought up the idea of bringing a rabbi to the school to teach us about the religion. That wasn't too bad, it was more about discussing generalities about being Jewish because the Nats didn't understand that being a Jew didn't mean that you identified with every other Jewish person. A little like when you say you belong to a certain group of people, or if you say you come from another town, people tend to ask you if you know their friends. Like, yes, I know every single person in Africa.