Hello everyone,

So these questions are posed to atheists and agnostics in this board.

Clearly you have a well-defined position in the philosophical discussion of the possibility of the universe being created by some set of creators. However, your philosophical position implies nothing other than the position itself. In light of this problem, I would like to see your answers to the following social problems that may arise. Particularly, I urge you to read my question 3, which in my opinion is the main one. I will also provide my answers as a fellow atheist/agnostic:

1. Would you marry/spend your life with a person of a different religion? If yes, would you participate in your spouse's religious rituals as a form of tolerance, or would you firmly oppose performing such rituals, considering them hypocritical acts?

My answer: Supposing I wanted to marry, then yes, religion wouldn't be a problem. Also to my second question: Yes, except for the stuff that is way too drastic, such as not eating beef or pork, etc.

2. Do you feel as if your atheism is a defining trait for you? By this I mean, do you consider your atheism as one of your main characteristics? Having answered the previous question, do you think that other people would say that your atheism is a defining trait for you?

My answer: No to the first question, yes to the second question. I tend to be quite outspoken about my position whenever such a situation is presented, and because of this, I think a lot of my religious friends/family think of me as a "stereotypical" atheist.

And most importantly:

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

My answer: This is the hard one for me, because even though I personally value honesty very highly with respect to my own pursuit of truth and knowledge, I will not pretend as if I wouldn't conceal (or outright lie about) my true beliefs to obtain some personal gain. Does this make me a hypocrit? In the past, I certainly would have considered myself highly immoral for this, when I used to be a lot more Kantian. But these days I feel like such judgements are so trivial and ill-conceived from the get-go that I don't really care about such paper morality anymore. I care most about the consequences these days I guess, and I know that a couple years ago I would think somebody as myself would be highly immoral, selfish, and robotic even. Oh well.

So what are your answers?

1. Did that. It was a secular marriage - we just signed the registry with two witnesses as that was the requirement of law. Then we had a jolly great feed and bash with extended family and friends. It never bothered me.

2. Yes. As tolerant as I am of others I am outspoken about my own truth. Contact is the appreciation of differences.

3. If my atheism were irrelevant, and it usually is, I have no problem letting others form their own conclusions so they feel all warm and fuzzy. But we will not be close personally. So far the situation has never happened. My experience has been if I am negotiating with someone and they bring up religion I get shafted. They have this nasty tendency to want special treatment and the religion is a justification.

1. I was married to a person of religion (not different religion). It failed, primarily because she was intolerant of any position other than her own. I do participate occasionally in religiously connected events such as weddings or funerals but I politely decline to undertake any actual act of worship beyond singing (because I love singing).

2.I don't regard atheism as a defining trait of mine. Just as I don't consider my lack of interest in stamp-collecting or fishing as a defining trait. I doubt many others outside of my immediate family would even know that I am an atheist since I am fortunate to live in a relatively secular society where the topic rarely comes up in conversation.

3. Not for gain. If I were in physical danger, which as a muslim apostate I might well be in some parts of the world, I would take the sensible precaution of keeping my atheist views to myself. I have done this in places such as Sudan and Pakistan. I would prefer not to die at the hands of a religious mob.

I'll offer an answer to 3.

It depends - The amount of gain, and what position I am in if I don't pretend will greatly affect my judgement on this. If it was a totalitarian religious state and it was a question of observe these practices or be killed, I'd have no qualms about pretending. If it was just to get in with my boss at work and get a juicy promotion, then no, never.

The degree of pretense also matters. If it's a question of just keeping quiet on the issue that's a lesser concern for me than active lies and deception.

Lentes wrote:Clearly you have a well-defined position in the philosophical discussion of the possibility of the universe being created by some set of creators.

Clearly?

However, your philosophical position implies nothing other than the position itself.

What position?

In light of this problem,

What problem?

I would like to see your answers to the following social problems that may arise. Particularly, I urge you to read my question 3, which in my opinion is the main one. I will also provide my answers as a fellow atheist/agnostic:

The spidey-sense is tingling.

1. Would you marry/spend your life with a person of a different religion? If yes, would you participate in your spouse's religious rituals as a form of tolerance, or would you firmly oppose performing such rituals, considering them hypocritical acts?

Fallacy of the complex question. Lets' address the two questions separately.

1. Leading question and somewhat question-begging. A different religion? Atheism isn't a religion. Would I spend my life with somebody of religion? Certainly. Not marriage though, which is an institution I do not support.
2. Also commits the fallacy of the complex question, so let's address those separately:
2a. No, I would not participate in my partner's religion.
2b. No, I would not oppose performing rituals.
2c. No, I do not consider them hypocritical (although I would view my own participation as such).

2. Do you feel as if your atheism is a defining trait for you? By this I mean, do you consider your atheism as one of your main characteristics? Having answered the previous question, do you think that other people would say that your atheism is a defining trait for you?

No, I don't consider atheism to be a trait. The word itself should tell you why this is, because the word is a privative. As to the second part of your question, quite probably, because most people erroneously view atheism as a trait, and I'm certainly not quiet about it.

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

Absolutely not.

1. Would you marry/spend your life with a person of a different religion? If yes, would you participate in your spouse's religious rituals as a form of tolerance, or would you firmly oppose performing such rituals, considering them hypocritical acts?

I married a catholic 20 years ago, the priest had to get special dispensation from the bishop as I would not say anything related to religion in the ceremony, I do not oppose anything religious but am open about both the fact that I do not believe it, and the fact that there is no evidence to support it. No problems so far, still married.


2. Do you feel as if your atheism is a defining trait for you? By this I mean, do you consider your atheism as one of your main characteristics? Having answered the previous question, do you think that other people would say that your atheism is a defining trait for you?

Not atheism as such, but the conservative and critical style of thinking and reasoning that allows one to easily recognise faulty logic and self-deception regarding all sorts of things is definitely a defining trait for me, and while others recognise it in me, they are just as likely to view it as an anti-social fault than an attribute.

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?


Absolutely not, see my answer to no 2. Honesty has held me back far more than it has advanced me. In fact, I cannot think of a single time when honesty actually has advantaged me, most people view honesty with distrust.

hackenslash wrote:

Lentes wrote:Clearly you have a well-defined position in the philosophical discussion of the possibility of the universe being created by some set of creators.

Clearly?

However, your philosophical position implies nothing other than the position itself.

What position?

In light of this problem,

What problem?

I would like to see your answers to the following social problems that may arise. Particularly, I urge you to read my question 3, which in my opinion is the main one. I will also provide my answers as a fellow atheist/agnostic:

The spidey-sense is tingling.

1. Would you marry/spend your life with a person of a different religion? If yes, would you participate in your spouse's religious rituals as a form of tolerance, or would you firmly oppose performing such rituals, considering them hypocritical acts?

Fallacy of the complex question. Lets' address the two questions separately.

1. Leading question and somewhat question-begging. A different religion? Atheism isn't a religion. Would I spend my life with somebody of religion? Certainly. Not marriage though, which is an institution I do not support.
2. Also commits the fallacy of the complex question, so let's address those separately:
2a. No, I would not participate in my partner's religion.
2b. No, I would not oppose performing rituals.
2c. No, I do not consider them hypocritical (although I would view my own participation as such).

2. Do you feel as if your atheism is a defining trait for you? By this I mean, do you consider your atheism as one of your main characteristics? Having answered the previous question, do you think that other people would say that your atheism is a defining trait for you?

No, I don't consider atheism to be a trait. The word itself should tell you why this is, because the word is a privative. As to the second part of your question, quite probably, because most people erroneously view atheism as a trait, and I'm certainly not quiet about it.

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

Absolutely not.

Wow, people call me pedantic. But anyways,

About question 1: I agree that atheism is not a religion, and I didn't mean to imply that in my question, even if it does seem that way, and so I admit I should have worded it slightly differently for the sake of precision. As for your observations that the question was complex: I agree, and initially wanted to separate that question into 2 questions and worded it better, but I didn't want to bore anybody with unnecessary detail...so I sacrificed some precision. I guess I won't be doing that much more now around this forum!

About question 2: Any position about anything can be a defining trait for some individual if the individual chooses it so. Though this may not be true for you or me in the case of atheism, it may (and it is) very well true for others who truly feel their atheism is a main part of their life, precisely because they attach emotional/social aspects to the stance. So I reject your assertion that atheism cannot be a trait for an individual.

****
Now this is addressed to all the people who have answered so far:

And now about question 3, allow me to elaborate a bit further on my answer: I would readily deceive others about my atheism (or any stance on any matter actually) if I thought that economic or political gain would follow as a consequence, and if I wanted such gain. I see that all of you so far disagree with me about what you would personally do. Why do you disagree? I guess that at this point it's important to differentiate between two cases: 1. You don't think being so dishonest in general is a proper way to conduct yourself. 2. You don't think being so dishonest about your atheism is a proper way to conduct yourself, but you would be dishonest about some other stances in other matters. I assume that case 1 is true for all of you who have answered so far, so if case 2 is true for you, I'd like to see why you consider atheism more special than some other stances.

By the way, even though my answer to 3 makes it seem like I'm highly dishonest and machiavellian, I hardly ever conduct myself in such manner...for the most part I am very honest about my stances in topics, but this is because for now I am far more interested in the exchange of ideas and understanding rather than some political gain. But if I ever feel like becoming a politician, I would find no hesitation in contradicting my own stances on different topics if I found it necessary to win (provided obviously that such contradiction is not apparent to the public).

As for 3 I can't see a situation where my atheism would be relevant. But if it were I wouldn't outright lie. Why? The truth sets you free.

Steve wrote:As for 3 I can't see a situation where my atheism would be relevant. But if it were I wouldn't outright lie. Why? The truth sets you free.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you. But presently I find myself questioning that sort of ideal too much. Truth, and correct and honest reasoning matters a lot to me in the sense that I want to reason correctly and that I want to have true knowledge about the nature of the world; but this does not necessarily imply that I have to be honest to others. I know this sounds selfish and hipocritical, and it is selfish but it's not necessarily hipocritical as I have explained.

Let me put it this way. As long as I know inwardly what my stances are, and as long as I know that I am not deceiving myself or that I am purposedly avoiding difficult questions about my stances, I feel like I am thinking/behaving correctly. But I only would see deceiving others as behaving "immorally" if there were no worthy gain from it.

I function better when alone because I prefer freedom and independence to security and companionship. But that not with standing I would have zero objection to spending my life with someone of another belief. As long as there was enough mutual attraction and respect to sustain a relationship then it would not be a problem. But not marriage as I do not believe in it

I would not participate in the rituals of their particular belief system beyond the attendance of functions such as weddings
or funerals which would be a social obligation and not a religious one [ though that would be entirely at the discretion of whose ever wedding or funeral it was ]

My atheism is not a defining trait for me although without it I would not have the mind set I do. It is what it allows me to
be beyond it itself in other words. And that is the realisation through scientific understanding that death is just a transition from one state to another so should not be feared. It is a very liberating philosophy and also one that is objectively true Now one does not have to be an atheist to be aware of this but for me there is a direct correlation between rejecting metaphysical myth and accepting scientific truth

No I would not pretend not to be an atheist if there was a financial gain for me. I would rather be poor by telling the truth than rich by telling a lie [ at least I hope I would anyway. As I have never been tested in that respect I cannot be absolutely certain but the anxiety caused by being deceitful for short term gain would make me consider the consequences of my actions if I did in a moment of weakness succumb to temptation. Though I cannot be corrupted by money as such if it
is not rightfully mine. I am not programmed in that way ]

hackenslash wrote:
Not marriage though which is an institution I do not support

Are you therefore being colloquial when using the title Mrs Slash

[ I only mention it because it struck me as an odd thing to say ]

I did lie about my lack of belief for financial gain when I went to Saudi Arabia. Mind you, it was that trip that that made me a militant secularist and I wouldn't do it again (barring exceptional circumstances).

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

No.

Briton wrote:I did lie about my lack of belief for financial gain when I went to Saudi Arabia. Mind you, it was that trip that that made me a militant secularist and I wouldn't do it again (barring exceptional circumstances).

But were your beliefs in anyway relevant to your job? I am struggling to come up with a scenario where it matters. So I would have no problem letting them believe what ever they like.

My wife was catholic (non practicing) but she was always assumed to be Jewish based on her appearance. She was always offered Jewish holidays as paid vacations, and she never objected. She was a strident believer in separation of church and state so she never mentioned religious issues at work. She was rather good at walking around the issue, as well, and I suspect this was part of why folks thought she was Jewish. If asked point blank she would have explained she never discusses religion or politics at work. And she would not budge. Meanwhile she accepted those paid days with pleasure.

Me? I am self employed. No work, no pay. I don't care about religion or politics at work except as it suggests I might not get paid.

Matthew Shute wrote:

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

No.

Hell no.

Fallible wrote:

Matthew Shute wrote:

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

No.

Hell no.

Well, it depends!

I'd pay homage to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and talk like a pirate for the price of a pint!

When it comes to other, strange, dubious, less appealing religions, well, I do have my principals....

Lentes wrote:

Clearly you have a well-defined position in the philosophical discussion of the possibility of the universe being created by some set of creators. However, your philosophical position implies nothing other than the position itself.

No, I have no "philosophical position" with regards to who created the universe. But I guess you could call it a scientific approach. Same goes for almost anything else. Hope that helps.

1) I did, Mrs. Lak isn't religious but she's a bit wooish at times.
2) Not really, it's part of who I am but it doesn't define me.
3) Absolutely. I'd hand rattlesnakes to rubes for enough dosh.

1. Would you marry/spend your life with a person of a different religion? If yes, would you participate in your spouse's religious rituals as a form of tolerance, or would you firmly oppose performing such rituals, considering them hypocritical acts?

1a. Hell yes. Anyone who says no has obviously never slept with a Catholic schoolgirl.
1b. Only if it would get me laid.

2. Do you feel as if your atheism is a defining trait for you? By this I mean, do you consider your atheism as one of your main characteristics? Having answered the previous question, do you think that other people would say that your atheism is a defining trait for you?

2a. Lack of faith is part of who I am. It doesn't define me, it's merely a side-effect of the rational mindset, which I would say was a defining feature.
2b. I doubt it.

3. Would you pretend to not be an atheist/agnostic if there was a perceived monetary or social gain for you?

Without question.

1) I could marry someone who believed in shit but only if they fully understood that I thought what they believed in was a load of shit. My wife thinks what colour the carpet is important, this is shit , my wife understands I don't care as long as its cheap but we still love each other

2) Belief in reason and general scepticism is very important to me, atheism is just a minor part of this as most people in the UK are completely indifferent to religion even if they belief in god

3) No problems, if I thought I would be a great money making preacher then that's what I would do, its only a form of acting and I greatly admire people who can speak complete crap which such clarity