Doubtdispelled wrote:

MattHunX wrote:

Doubtdispelled wrote:

You are kidding, right?

To all the men who are saying 'it's a storm in a teacup' or 'she should get over herself' or 'she has nothing to complain about', how many of you are likely to be the ones who post on threads about rape saying things like that comment above? We've been there, got the t-shirt, the one that reads 'I'm dressed like a tart so it's ok to rape me'.

No, I'm not kidding. She obviously wasn't the kind of woman to just accept such an admittedly bold "invitation", anyway. Other women, with less inhibitions, and less shy, might easily have taken the guy's "offer", simply for the fun of it. What are the chances that he was a murdering psychopath as opposed to simply being sexually aroused and/or intoxicated to the point where he would make such a bold "proposition".

This woman obviously wasn't likely to accept the invitation from anyone, anyway. This situation, that this one guy just happened to find/approach her, a more shy, more reserved woman, alone in the elevator is so mundane, they might as well have been in a 7/11, a club, or a clothing store, with the guy hitting on her, minus the booze, or if we want that, then in a random bar.

If she wants to complain about something so trivial (in this society), then other women, who were in similar situations in bars, shops, restaurants, clubs...etc. might as well complain, too.

And that would be simply ridiculous.

You just don't 'get it', do you, Matt? Trivial? You are doing exactly the same thing Dawkins did.

And what in hell's name does sexual arousal have to do with it?

babel wrote:

Doubtdispelled wrote:Yep again.

So - what's the answer?

It's a very simple one, but it seems to be taking us centuries to get there.

Mindreading?

From a male perspective, it's impossible to know for sure beforehand if a woman will appreciate being chatted up by you. Avoid chatting up entirely, might render our species extinct in a couple of decades though... So, back to mindreading.

Anyone seen Yuri around?

MattHunX wrote:If the guy had been forceful in any way, she'd have a valid complaint.

Animavore wrote:

Charlou wrote:

Animavore wrote:I was proportioned by a big black woman in an apartment block on Jervis street once. The elevator stopped and I ran. It wasn't even my floor. I ran up the stairs to my friend's appartment and was knocking on the door when the elevator door opened and yer one walked out and by me with a look of contempt

I was really shy then. My friend, an Irish/Jordanian Muslim called Janal ended up shagging her another night.

Oh it's funny when it happens to a man. Double standards

Well it is pretty funny looking back on it, I suppose. And all the other times I fled from women in fear.
The sexual intimidation from girls in my class taking advantage of my shyness - not so much.
I would've made a YouTube video but I probably would've been ridiculed and told to 'grow a pair'

rJD wrote:Matt, this row is not about "elevator guy". Watson was a bit uncomfortable about the situation and asked for men at rationalist conferences to show a bit of empathy to women who might be put off from attending by such situations. That's it, that's all.

Dawkins has escalated this by turning it into an attack on Watson for daring to complain (however mildly) when there are muslim women suffering much worse, demonstrating both his lack of understanding of the situation and also using a rather lamentable fallacy in his argument. It's entirely Dawkins' fault that this has been turned into an issue at all. His immoderate and unjustified attack on Watson is the issue here, not whether "elevator guy" did anything wrong.

MattHunX wrote:But, she did feel uncomfortable, simply because of her own nature. She would have felt uncomfortable in any other similar situations and place (elevator, shop, club, or other).

Doubtdispelled wrote:

MattHunX wrote:I've already seen this on Pharyngula and from Matt Dillahunty.

Some folks obviously cannot detect SARCASM!

Dawkins might as well have just posted his take on it in the Onion.

He even explained in a response that his reply was meant sarcastically. Comparing this woman's experience to the situation of women in muslim countries, and in effect, stating quite correctly that this woman's got nothing to complain about.

What happened to her pales in comparison to the situation of muslim women.

That said, it isn't right to ignore the smaller issues, and focus only on the big ones, but seriously!? She's complaining about a harmless invitation that she could turn down with mere words, when other women are getting battery acid in their faces, aren't allowed to drive and are being abused by their husband while sharia courts are totally fine with it.

A word to the apparently unwise, to her: Quit crying about some non-event! It was practically harmless flirting, as far as it went. She was able to avoid "the situation" with mere words.

And honestly, what does she expect to happen in a bar, at 4:00am, with potentially drunk and/or potentially sexually aroused individuals? A little naive, I feel. Chances are, if not here, than some other woman might have taken the guy up on his offer, to have some more fun. She's just not that kind of woman. Doesn't mean she had anything serious to complain about, though.

Charlou wrote:The banana

Doubtdispelled wrote:

babel wrote:

Doubtdispelled wrote:Yep again.

So - what's the answer?

It's a very simple one, but it seems to be taking us centuries to get there.

Mindreading?

From a male perspective, it's impossible to know for sure beforehand if a woman will appreciate being chatted up by you. Avoid chatting up entirely, might render our species extinct in a couple of decades though... So, back to mindreading.

Anyone seen Yuri around?

No, not mindreading. Just respect. Respect for women as people, as fellow humans, someone you treat the way you yourself would like to be treated. I wasn't particularly referring to a 'chatting up' scenario. But let's face it, if there was respect, then a man's attitude would be different, wouldn't it, and a woman alone in an elevator with a stranger would have no reason to be concerned about his intentions?

MattHunX wrote:If the guy had been forceful in any way, she'd have a valid complaint.

So, her concern that he may have become forceful is - to you at least - not even to be considered? I don't know how to explain this to you. I may have to give up.

In the meantime, I found this:

virphen wrote:
Except you missed the point where this was coming right after a staged discussion she was part on in which she talked about EXACTLY THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOUR. That was the point. After her pointing out how men in atheist circles all too often objectify women and look on their involvement in these things as just another way to meet chicks, she has a guy, who attended said session behave in exactly that way!

MattHunX wrote:
Such behavior from men, in Western society can be considered mundane.

babel wrote:

Doubtdispelled wrote:Yep again.

So - what's the answer?

It's a very simple one, but it seems to be taking us centuries to get there.

Mindreading?

From a male perspective, it's impossible to know for sure beforehand if a woman will appreciate being chatted up by you. Avoid chatting up entirely, might render our species extinct in a couple of decades though... So, back to mindreading.

Anyone seen Yuri around?

MattHunX wrote:What we have here, is a (more) shy, reserved, attractive woman who felt very uncomfortable from the attention/comment/proposal she was getting from a complete stranger.

Had she been in a club or in a random bar, she'd like have experienced the same thing. Would she have been upset, then, as well? Probably, because she's the kind of woman, shy, reserved, who doesn't jump into things, or onto men, so easy. Or at all.

She is overreacting. She could avoid and stop the situation from developing further, easily and without complications. The guy wasn't forceful in any way, verbally or physically.

No cause for concern. But, she did feel uncomfortable, simply because of her own nature. She would have felt uncomfortable in any other similar situations and place (elevator, shop, club, or other).

virphen wrote:Except you missed the point where this was coming right after a staged discussion she was part on in which she talked about EXACTLY THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOUR. That was the point. After her pointing out how men in atheist circles all too often objectify women and look on their involvement in these things as just another way to meet chicks, she has a guy, who attended said session behave in exactly that way!

virphen wrote:

MattHunX wrote:
Such behavior from men, in Western society can be considered mundane.

Yes!!!!!

And that is the fucking problem.