In any event, this question should be easy to answer. All we need is a complete version of the Quran from Muhammed's time, and we could compare it to the versions today to see if at least one of them preserves Muhammed's original recitation completely intact.

Of course, since there is no such Quranic text in existence, we know that you are, at best, saying things you do not know to be true, parsurrey.

Shrunk wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:I don't doubt you find this highly persuasive while simultaneously not even considering the massive potential for errors and changes to be introduced.

There are no errors or changes in Quran; it is the same as it was Revealed on Muhammad.

That's clearly false. The Quran existed in at least seven versions (Ahruf) during Muhammed's life, according to Muslim scholars. None of these were identical to version that was eventually compiled by Uthman, after Muhammed's death.

As I've said before, you should be asking us to teach you about Islam, not presuming to teach us. You are the person least knowledgable about Islam in this thread.

I requested you to name the region/country of the world where a different version of the Quran in original Arabic is used. You could not name any.

I don't mind if you still continue with your imagination that there are many Versions of the Quran in Arabic; it is your right to believe in anything you like to.

Shrunk wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:I don't doubt you find this highly persuasive while simultaneously not even considering the massive potential for errors and changes to be introduced.

There are no errors or changes in Quran; it is the same as it was Revealed on Muhammad.

That's clearly false. The Quran existed in at least seven versions (Ahruf) during Muhammed's life, according to Muslim scholars. None of these were identical to version that was eventually compiled by Uthman, after Muhammed's death.

As I've said before, you should be asking us to teach you about Islam, not presuming to teach us. You are the person least knowledgable about Islam in this thread.

The religious having less knowledge about their religion than atheists...about par for the course.

paarsurrey wrote:

Shrunk wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:I don't doubt you find this highly persuasive while simultaneously not even considering the massive potential for errors and changes to be introduced.

There are no errors or changes in Quran; it is the same as it was Revealed on Muhammad.

That's clearly false. The Quran existed in at least seven versions (Ahruf) during Muhammed's life, according to Muslim scholars. None of these were identical to version that was eventually compiled by Uthman, after Muhammed's death.

As I've said before, you should be asking us to teach you about Islam, not presuming to teach us. You are the person least knowledgable about Islam in this thread.

I requested you to name the region/country of the world where a different version of the Quran in original Arabic is used. You could not name any.

I don't mind if you still continue with your imagination that there are many Versions of the Quran in Arabic; it is your right to believe in anything you like to.

"CONCLUSION. We began this article by considering the following claim made by a Muslim leader about the Qur'an.
No other book in the world can match the Qur'an ... The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. ... No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, p. 4)

This claim is wrong. All of the Islamic evidence shows that there are different versions of the Qur'an used around the world today. They are different in their basic letters, diacritical dots and vowels, and this changes the meaning of words and sentences. The different Qur'ans also have a different understanding of the Basmalah, some accepting it as part of the Qur'an while others not. Therefore how the Qur'an is recited around the world today is different."

From: http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm1191822

paarsurrey wrote:
I requested you to name the region/country of the world where a different version of the Quran in original Arabic is used. You could not name any.

I don't mind if you still continue with your imagination that there are many Versions of the Quran in Arabic; it is your right to believe in anything you like to.

Algeria, Morrocco, West Africa and Sudan use the Warsh version of the Quran, which differs from the Hafs version that is used by the rest of the muslim world. An excellent explanation can be found here:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm

It seems you haven't even taken the trouble to educate yourself about Islam. Perhaps it's because you aren't a proper muslim but a member of a breakaway cult and are trying too hard to compensate for being rejected by real muslims?

Blackadder wrote:

It seems you haven't even taken the trouble to educate yourself about Islam. Perhaps it's because you aren't a proper muslim but a member of a breakaway cult and are trying too hard to compensate for being rejected by real muslims?

Or he's just a typical religious person: claims to be a follower of a religion, but knows absolutely fuck-all about it, except the parts that agree with his preconceived ideas.

Zwaarddijk wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

monkeyboy wrote:

Scar wrote:

I tend to agree. The mods should check his IPs to see wether there are striking differences.

Would that prove anything. I log in from different PCs depending on where I am. I also use my phone on the go sometimes. Wouldn't they show different IPs?

If they correlated to a different posting style, it might indeed prove something!

you would find different posting styles when I'm on this network than when I am on my home-network, because when I am on this network, I am basically posting during breaks, in a hurry, not quite having the time to verify things to the same extent as usual, etc. ..

You know, your IP isn't just some number. It can tell us something about where you are. If paarsurrey were to login from 2 strickingly different places within a very short time, that'd be pretty good evidence amongst other things.

Scar wrote:

Zwaarddijk wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

monkeyboy wrote:

Would that prove anything. I log in from different PCs depending on where I am. I also use my phone on the go sometimes. Wouldn't they show different IPs?

If they correlated to a different posting style, it might indeed prove something!

you would find different posting styles when I'm on this network than when I am on my home-network, because when I am on this network, I am basically posting during breaks, in a hurry, not quite having the time to verify things to the same extent as usual, etc. ..

You know, your IP isn't just some number. It can tell us something about where you are. If paarsurrey were to login from 2 strickingly different places within a very short time, that'd be pretty good evidence amongst other things.

And I know some schools have weirdly routed IPs - my brother's school connects to the wider internet through a branch in a town 150 miles away; I know my university could have reasons to do a similar trick, as there's a better line to the wider world from a town where it has a small branch. So yeah, it's not just a number, but sometimes, that not-just-a-number thing can be misleading.

paarsurrey wrote:

Oeditor wrote:
why is it always described as a Book that was read to Mohammed?

The verses of Quran were Revealed to him; when a verse/s was revealed to him; he committed it to his memory and from him his companions would commit it to their memory. Muhammad and his companion had made a habit to recite or repeat the verses which have been revealed so far, at a given point of time; all of them enjoyed hearing verses of Quran from others being read. Muhammad also enjoyed hearing it from others to recite to him.

Quran had such an attraction to thim and they all loved Quran.

I think it helps.

Sorry, but no it doesn't - you haven't even approached an answer to my question. If it was intended as a recitation and even named "The Recitation", why was it, WITHIN ITSELF, described as a book? My own view is that it was probably written, as a book, well after Mohammed's death and the authors slipped up and wrote "book" without thinking.

Oeditor wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

Oeditor wrote:
why is it always described as a Book that was read to Mohammed?

The verses of Quran were Revealed to him; when a verse/s was revealed to him; he committed it to his memory and from him his companions would commit it to their memory. Muhammad and his companion had made a habit to recite or repeat the verses which have been revealed so far, at a given point of time; all of them enjoyed hearing verses of Quran from others being read. Muhammad also enjoyed hearing it from others to recite to him.

Quran had such an attraction to thim and they all loved Quran.

I think it helps.

Sorry, but no it doesn't - you haven't even approached an answer to my question. If it was intended as a recitation and even named "The Recitation", why was it, WITHIN ITSELF, described as a book? My own view is that it was probably written, as a book, well after Mohammed's death and the authors slipped up and wrote "book" without thinking.

This might also be a translation-related issue, you know. A bit like the bats being birds in the Bible. A claim that no one even remotely versed in philology would make.

Zwaarddijk wrote:

Oeditor wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

Oeditor wrote:
why is it always described as a Book that was read to Mohammed?

The verses of Quran were Revealed to him; when a verse/s was revealed to him; he committed it to his memory and from him his companions would commit it to their memory. Muhammad and his companion had made a habit to recite or repeat the verses which have been revealed so far, at a given point of time; all of them enjoyed hearing verses of Quran from others being read. Muhammad also enjoyed hearing it from others to recite to him.

Quran had such an attraction to thim and they all loved Quran.

I think it helps.

Sorry, but no it doesn't - you haven't even approached an answer to my question. If it was intended as a recitation and even named "The Recitation", why was it, WITHIN ITSELF, described as a book? My own view is that it was probably written, as a book, well after Mohammed's death and the authors slipped up and wrote "book" without thinking.

This might also be a translation-related issue, you know. A bit like the bats being birds in the Bible. A claim that no one even remotely versed in philology would make.

The word used in the Quran is "al-Kitab", which translates unequivocally as "book".

paarsurrey wrote:

Shrunk wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:I don't doubt you find this highly persuasive while simultaneously not even considering the massive potential for errors and changes to be introduced.

There are no errors or changes in Quran; it is the same as it was Revealed on Muhammad.

That's clearly false. The Quran existed in at least seven versions (Ahruf) during Muhammed's life, according to Muslim scholars. None of these were identical to version that was eventually compiled by Uthman, after Muhammed's death.

As I've said before, you should be asking us to teach you about Islam, not presuming to teach us. You are the person least knowledgable about Islam in this thread.

I requested you to name the region/country of the world where a different version of the Quran in original Arabic is used. You could not name any.

I don't mind if you still continue with your imagination that there are many Versions of the Quran in Arabic; it is your right to believe in anything you like to.

That's not what I said. Please re-read my post:

The Quran existed in at least seven versions (Ahruf) during Muhammed's life, according to Muslim scholars.

As far as the claim that there are different versions in use today, I have already explained that this is not something I have claimed. The person who made this claim (and, I'm sorry, I've again forgotten who that was) has already provided the evidence to defend this claim. So, again, you are speaking blatant falsehoods.

paarsurrey wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:I don't doubt you find this highly persuasive while simultaneously not even considering the massive potential for errors and changes to be introduced.

There are no errors or changes in Quran; it is the same as it was Revealed on Muhammad.

So you agree with what I said then - that you have no consideration about the massive potential for errors and changes to be introduced.

Zwaarddijk wrote:

Scar wrote:

Zwaarddijk wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:

If they correlated to a different posting style, it might indeed prove something!

you would find different posting styles when I'm on this network than when I am on my home-network, because when I am on this network, I am basically posting during breaks, in a hurry, not quite having the time to verify things to the same extent as usual, etc. ..

You know, your IP isn't just some number. It can tell us something about where you are. If paarsurrey were to login from 2 strickingly different places within a very short time, that'd be pretty good evidence amongst other things.

And I know some schools have weirdly routed IPs - my brother's school connects to the wider internet through a branch in a town 150 miles away; I know my university could have reasons to do a similar trick, as there's a better line to the wider world from a town where it has a small branch. So yeah, it's not just a number, but sometimes, that not-just-a-number thing can be misleading.

Again, i think you've got to look at it in the context of a sudden, and dramatic change in posting style and capability of formulating coherent and grammatically correct sentences that also coincide with a change in IP location. Sure, there might be the occasional bad typing day while you're on your iphone out and about, but when there are routine correlations, then you've got reasonable cause to suspect.

Spearthrower wrote:

paarsurrey wrote:

Spearthrower wrote:I don't doubt you find this highly persuasive while simultaneously not even considering the massive potential for errors and changes to be introduced.

There are no errors or changes in Quran; it is the same as it was Revealed on Muhammad.

So you agree with what I said then - that you have no consideration about the massive potential for errors and changes to be introduced.

The link on post #385 by Blackadder gives all the info.

Paarsurrey all of you read it. You will then know that you all are talking a load of crap.

Blackadder wrote:

The word used in the Quran is "al-Kitab", which translates unequivocally as "book".

The root of the word "Kitab" is k-t-b which tells us that it means something which is in a good natural and meaningful system; is divided in chapters each meaningful in its own and then it is linked to the adjoining chapters and the whole of it in a very elaborate system; is an ethical, moral and spiritual law containing commandments and prohibitions guiding to a sublime purpose. In this sense this Recitation-Quran is called the “Book”.

One could know it better from the word “kutaibah” from the same root k-t-b, in use for a regiment -a military formation varying in size from a battalion to a number of battalions of an army; an organized group or unit systematically linked to the main Force; having an elaborate system of its own structured with the main; performing with the adjoining regiments in unison.

I think I mentioned it here earlier that as an axiliary measure to preserve it was also committed to writing for public convenience but the original Recitation is verbal ; nevetheless both exist undoubtedly, supporting one another.

Paarsurrey have all of you read that link in Blackadders post.

Do you still maintain that there is only one version of your magic book?

The evidence is very concise.

paarsurrey wrote:

z8000783 wrote:

Many Millions of people are Muslims and it is an extremely powerful religion/way of life today so I think it's important that we can be sure that Muhammad had the Quran revealed to him directly from God, don't you? I still do not see where you point this out in the Quran.

Surely if you are using reasoning to determine this then it will presumably be based on evidence. Can you show me the (reliable) evidence that Muhammad had the Quran revealed to him, please.

Many thanks once again for taking the time a trouble to explain these things.

John

Sorry; I could not understand your question clearly; I answered as I could understand it then and now. Please elaborate it again.

I am sorry for the confusion, I will try to make it simpler.

You said that you use reasoning and evidence to understand things.

I am trying to understand your reasoning that leads you to accept that the Quran was revealed to Mohamed.

You said that history books were not 100% reliable including the book you recommended on the History of Mohamed.

You said that the Quran was 100% reliable but the Quran does not say that it was revealed to Mohamed or mention him anywhere.

So my question is, how do you know for sure that the Quran was revealed to Mohamed in the way you said.

Hope that's clear now.

John

Shrunk wrote:
That's not what I said. Please re-read my post:

The Quran existed in at least seven versions (Ahruf) during Muhammed's life, according to Muslim scholars.

As far as the claim that there are different versions in use today, I have already explained that this is not something I have claimed. The person who made this claim (and, I'm sorry, I've again forgotten who that was) has already provided the evidence to defend this claim. So, again, you are speaking blatant falsehoods.

We Muslims don't believe in any clergy and are not bound by their thoughts and misdeeds; the five pillars of our faith being:

1. Belief in the Allah- the Creator God.
2. Belief in the angels
3. Belief in the books revealed from the Creator God
4. Belief in His messengers prophets
5. Belief in the Day of Judgment

One may refer to the following verse in this connection:

O ye who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger, and in the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger, and the Book which He revealed before it. And whoso disbelieves in Allah and His angels, and His Books, and His Messengers, and the Last Day, has surely strayed far away.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh ... &verse=136

Quran does not mention of anything which you have described; and Hadith was collected 200/250 years after Muhammad and history of Muhammad’s time even much later.

Quran is the same as is now available in all parts of the world; it has no versions in the original Arabic text; just ONE text.

WHY do you believe what the Quran says?