Xeno wrote:

Lion IRC wrote:Do you want me to explain why I have no problem accepting something in the bible as literal and/or metaphorical?
Where is the conflict in Jesus talking about two brothers, one of whom took his inheritance and spent it prodigally, who both literally existed as real people AND who both also serve as a metaphor/parable for some bigger picture?

That is explicitly written by the author as a story told by character in the book. It is literally true that the story was told in the book, regardless of whether the events in the story happened or not. That is perfectly clear. The question was about direct events in the bible, not those related by a character in the text. Most of the bible is written directly, not as a related story. In accord with that, wherever explicit events are described in the book:

Do you consider such events literally true, factually correct?
Do you consider such events metaphorical?
Are there any errors of fact in the bible?

These questions are not mutually exclusive.

Poor old Lion. There you go, I have taken out the shiny distracting bit which so fascinated you that you evaded questions again. What are your answers to those questions please?

Xeno wrote:

Xeno wrote:

Lion IRC wrote:Do you want me to explain why I have no problem accepting something in the bible as literal and/or metaphorical?
Where is the conflict in Jesus talking about two brothers, one of whom took his inheritance and spent it prodigally, who both literally existed as real people AND who both also serve as a metaphor/parable for some bigger picture?

That is explicitly written by the author as a story told by character in the book. It is literally true that the story was told in the book, regardless of whether the events in the story happened or not. That is perfectly clear. The question was about direct events in the bible, not those related by a character in the text. Most of the bible is written directly, not as a related story. In accord with that, wherever explicit events are described in the book:

Do you consider such events literally true, factually correct?
Do you consider such events metaphorical?
Are there any errors of fact in the bible?

These questions are not mutually exclusive.

Poor old Lion. There you go, I have taken out the shiny distracting bit which so fascinated you that you evaded questions again. What are your answers to those questions please?

Q. Do you consider the parable of the two brothers (aka - the prodigal son) literally true, factually correct?
A. Yes.

Q. Do you consider the parable of the two brothers (aka - the prodigal son) metaphorical?
A. Yes.

Q. Are there any errors of fact in the bible?
A. No

Q. Does the bible include any lies?
A. Yes. satan told Adam & Eve they wouldnt die if they ate the apple. They did.

Do you consider such events literally true, factually correct?
Do you consider such events metaphorical?

The term "such events" renders the question complex - unable to be answered with a simple yes - because I dont know what you think this encompasses.

It's like asking, do you think quantum physics is literally true.

/me steers back to the topic.

Lion IRC wrote:
Q. Are there any errors of fact in the bible?
A. No

Someone should call Linnaeus and tell him that he was way off when he classified bats as mammals. Should have consulted his Bible first.

surreptitious57 wrote:Energy how ever has always existed as according to the First Law Of Thermodynamics

That's not a good argument unless it's erected in direct opposition to the argument that the Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to the universe as a whole. It's certainly true that, within the cosmos, energy is conserved in a closed system, but the problem is that to apply that to the cosmos as a whole is to commit a fallacy of composition. It works fine as a direct response to the idea that if the universe were infinite that it would constitute a violation of the 2LT, but that's only because that argument commits the same fallacy.

In short, it's a good counter-argument, but not a good foundational argument, and I'd be careful of employing it in such a fashion.

Incidentally, I just spotted your question posed to me elsewhere on another forum. I'll answer it tomorrow when I have a day off.

Lion IRC wrote:
Q Are there any errors of fact in the bible A No

Bats classed as birds
Jesus born of a virgin
Jesus rising from dead
Lots wife turned to salt
Job living for aII eternity
Spiders classed as insects
Moses parting the Red Sea
Insects only having four legs
Jesus performing the miracles
Adam living nine hundred years
God appearing as a burning bush
Satan appearing as a talking snake
Methuselah living nine hundred years
Genesis One and Two in contradiction
Entire human race descended from eight
Four varying accounts of betrayal of Jesus

Lion IRC wrote:Do you consider such events literally true, factually correct?
Do you consider such events metaphorical?

The term "such events" renders the question complex - unable to be answered with a simple yes - because I dont know what you think this encompasses.

Let me make it simple for you, so you can answer correctly (for once) :

Do you think Noah's ark story is true ?
Do you think Jonah's 3 days in a fish story is true ?
Do you think the jews stayed in the desert for 40 years, only fed by mana falling from the sky ?
Do you think the "army of zombies" that raised in jesus times really happened ?

Remember, these are yes/no questions

Lion IRC wrote:Q. Does the bible include any lies?
A. Yes. satan told Adam & Eve they wouldnt die if they ate the apple. They did.

No, he did not.

He told Eve that they would not die "in the day" that they ate the forbidden fruit. The lie was told by God when he told Adam that they would die "in the day" that they ate the forbidden fruit.

Adam and Eve did not die "in the day" they ate the forbidden fruit. God lied and the Serpent told the truth.

Lion IRC wrote:

ElDiablo wrote:

Lion IRC wrote:Are you talking about post #174 ElDiablo ?

Even from your literalist standpoint you know that there are a tremendous amount of scientific papers that don't support the Genesis account of Origins or the Flood. You choose to accept only that which is compatible with your viewpoint. Why?

I can read the bible literally or metaphorically, either way, with no “God versus science” conflict.
It's ALL compatible with my viewpoint. Now, what was your question?

Feigning ignorance again Lion. You answer my why question with "I can." I at least try to give you credit for being well read but it's obvious that comprehension is another matter. I'll get more specific.

Metaphorical or literal or both? Please explain. Please be honest Lion and don't pretend that you don't know what the conflicts are; you will only show that Morton's Demon is hard at work.
God gathers dirt shapes it into a man like form and blows into its nostrils, then creates women, etc...
The Flood story. 800 year old man builds an arc and gathers all the worlds creatures. God then causes rain to destroy the world. Once it stops raining asks for the offering of burnt flesh.

Do you want me to explain why I have no problem accepting something in the bible as literal and/or metaphorical?
Where is the conflict in Jesus talking about two brothers, one of whom took his inheritance and spent it prodigally, who both literally existed as real people AND who both also serve as a metaphor/parable for some bigger picture?

Just because you call them conflicts doesnt mean I do.

I dont need to..."please be honest" and "don't pretend" and "blah blah Mortons Demon" etc. etc.

If you want to have a bible discussion I'm happy to engage. Start a thread if you like.

How the hell did Lion interpret "God gathers dirt shapes it into a man like form and blows into its nostrils, then creates women, etc... The Flood story. 800 year old man builds an arc and gathers all the worlds creatures. God then causes rain to destroy the world. Once it stops raining asks for the offering of burnt flesh."

as

"Jesus talking about two brothers, one of whom took his inheritance and spent it prodigally, who both literally existed"

???

Deliberately avoiding very specific examples given where the bible is in conflict with, or I should say, is pushing way past the boundaries between what is possible in the physical word and what's meant to be taken as an allegory. He was given specific examples, and chose to answer with a question containing examples that were completely different, and unrelated.

If we want to have bible discussion...? With someone who debates in the above manner?

hackenslash wrote:

surreptitious57 wrote:
Energy how ever has always existed as according to the First Law Of Thermodynamics

That s not a good argument unless it s erected in direct opposition to the argument that the Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to the universe as a whole It s certainly true that within the cosmos energy is conserved in a closed system but the problem is that to apply that to the cosmos as a whole is to commit a fallacy of composition It works fine as a direct response to the idea that if the universe were infinite that it would constitute a violation of the 2LT but that's only because that argument commits the same fallacy

You have mentioned this before : I use the
First Law because it is easy to understand but
obviously one should not reference it in absolute
terms : but is it not true how ever that the Second
Law pertains to matter and not energy so therefore the
contradiction between the two is not so pronounced : you
yourself have stated that you believe the Universe has always
existed : I agree but does this not violate the Second Law though
Maybe you could start a thread to explain this in more detail as I my
self could certainly do with a more comprehensive explanation of all this

Lion IRC wrote:It's like asking, do you think quantum physics is literally true.

/me steers back to the topic.

No, it's nothing like that, since in the context we can easily discern what is meant by "such events". (Like in a reading comprehension exercise, in class, in school, for people whose first language isn't even English.). What kind of events in the bible is the question referring to, stories of miracles...etc. Anyone else here can easily understand what the question refers to, but you seem to be incapable. More likely, it is another instance of avoiding an answer for as long as possible.

surreptitious57 wrote: but is it not true how ever that the Second Law pertains to matter and not energy so therefore the contradiction between the two is not so pronounced

No, because matter and energy are two sides of the same coin, and the 2LT applies equally. Of course, there are some subtleties concerning precisely which formulation of the 2LT one is employing, whether from thermodynamics or from statistical mechanics, but in most respects they are indistinguishable, which is precisely why popular science writers always conflate entropy with disorder, erroneously, I might add. Basically, matter is bound energy, and as in all things, energy seeks equilibrium, or the lowest energy state. In statistical mechanics, this is equated with disorder, because a disordered state is vastly more probable than an ordered one, which is why, if you throw the pages of an unbound book in the air, it will pretty much always land in a configuration in which the pages are not in order. Analogous effects also apply in thermodynamics. This is why disorder can only be described as an analogy for entropy, not entropy itself. As far as we can tell, all macroscopic entities are subject to entropy.

: you yourself have stated that you believe the Universe has always existed

I would hope that my statements have been more subtle than that, and I have certainly never expressed anything that could be called 'belief' with regard to this. What I have always said is that any categorical conclusions regarding the pre-Planck cosmos are premature, because the data support no conclusions as yet.

I agree but does this not violate the Second Law though.

That's a thorny problem, and indeed all the models for the pre-Planck cosmos currently on the table suffer from this niggle. There are some proposed solutions, but they are less than robust at the moment. Roger Penrose, for example, proposes that in many respects zero entropy and infinite entropy are actually indistinguishable, and can be treated as equivalent. The reasoning behind this is pretty esoteric, and I don't fully understand it myself, but there it is. Other proposals include a universe on the other side of the bang in which the 2LT is reversed, so that entropy actually decreases as it approaches the bang, and then increases on this side of it.

Maybe you could start a thread to explain this in more detail as I my self could certainly do with a more comprehensive explanation of all this

That might be a good idea. I had always wanted to expand on my essay on entropy to make it somewhat more comprehensive, and to have more detailed discussion with some of the physics bods here. I'll give it some thought.

Thank you Lion. Other posts say enough for now about your nonsense, although I see some avenues down which I might expect you to wibble as best you can. I note in passing that despite the fact I quite specifically requested discussion of directly related events, not stories by characters, you chose for your first two replies stories by characters. Evasion Is obvious evasion.

aban57 wrote:

Lion IRC wrote:Do you consider such events literally true, factually correct?
Do you consider such events metaphorical?

The term "such events" renders the question complex - unable to be answered with a simple yes - because I dont know what you think this encompasses.

Let me make it simple for you, so you can answer correctly (for once) :

Do you think Noah's ark story is true ?
Do you think Jonah's 3 days in a fish story is true ?
Do you think the jews stayed in the desert for 40 years, only fed by mana falling from the sky ?
Do you think the "army of zombies" that raised in jesus times really happened ?

Remember, these are yes/no questions

Noah - yes
Jonah - yes
40 years - yes
Only manna - no
Army - no, not that many and not at war
Zombies - what's a zombie?

hackenslash wrote:

surreptitious57 wrote:

I agree but does this not violate the Second Law though

That s a thorny problem and indeed all the models for the pre-Planck cosmos currently on the table suffer from this niggle There are some proposed solutions but they are less than robust at the moment Roger Penrose for example proposes that in many respects zero entropy and infinite entropy are actually indistinguishable and can be treated as equivalent The reasoning behind this is pretty esoteric and I don t fully understand it myself but there it is Other proposals include a universe on the other side of the bang in which the 2LT is reversed so that entropy actually decreases as it approaches the bang, and then increases on this side of it

Would infinite entropy not require infinite matter
Does the Uncertainty Principle invalidate zero energy
Presumably entropy will stop in this Universe when it dies
Would every law of physics be reversed in a mirror Universe
Do they only therefore apply to this particular one and not others
Any links or references you could provide for mirror Universe theory

MrFungus420 wrote:

Lion IRC wrote:Q. Does the bible include any lies?
A. Yes. satan told Adam & Eve they wouldnt die if they ate the apple. They did.

No, he did not.

He told Eve that they would not die "in the day" that they ate the forbidden fruit. The lie was told by God when he told Adam that they would die "in the day" that they ate the forbidden fruit.

Adam and Eve did not die "in the day" they ate the forbidden fruit. God lied and the Serpent told the truth.

And I will add that the man and woman were mortal and bound to die whether or not they ate from the tree of knowledge. The reason they were cast out of the garden was a fear that they might eat from the tree of life and become immortal like the gods.

Basically "God" told the man and woman that the tree of knowledge was poison to keep them away from it, but lied about what would happen to them.

The serpent told the truth and "God" confirmed it.

Serpent : "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

God: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

And I'd like to point out that there is no mention of Satan in Genesis 3. There is a serpent that apparently had legs before being cursed by God to go about on it's belly.

I am continually astonished that Christians like Lion don't know what is said in Genesis three, let alone understand what it is about.

It is both scriptural and orthodox that Adam and Eve died as a result of doing something which satan told them would NOT result in death - the wages of sin.

I'm NEVER astonished that atheists like MrFungus420 and Oldskeptic think Adam and Eve were both pronounced dead at exactly 3.45PM on the first day in July according to some (extra-biblical) coroner's report.

Lion do you believe the stories in Judges 11 (man burns virgin daughter to please God) and Judges 19 (priest gives his concubine to a gang of men to rape and then in morning cuts her up into 12 pieces) are true? If you believe they are true, how can you worship a God who approved of such behaviour, if they are metaphorical, then what are they metaphors for? Do you approve of this sort of behaviour?

Judges 11:31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break.”

Judges 19:25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, “Get up; let’s go.” But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel. 30 Everyone who saw it was saying to one another, “Such a thing has never been seen or done, not since the day the Israelites came up out of Egypt. Just imagine! We must do something! So speak up!”

Large Haddron Collider - €7.5 billion
Why?

List of unsolved problems in (non-theistic) cosmology/physics
What is the origin of matter, energy, spacetime and the fundamental forces that form the universe / multiverse?
What is the origin of simple patterns in complex nuclei?
What is the origin of the M-sigma relation between supermassive black hole mass and galaxy velocity dispersion?
What is the origin of magnetar magnetic field?
How do gamma ray bursts originate?
Age crisis - what is the "age" of the universe if it has always existed? (Infinitely recurring cyclic model)
Does nature have more than four spacetime dimensions? (Interesting word - "nature". Philosophy is dead?)
Why is the distant universe so homogeneous? Boundary/no boundary?
Why did the universe have such low entropy in the past? (Arrow of time.)
Why do people refer to the quantum vacuum state as "nothing" when it is "something" which itself awaits explanation?

More Gaps than ever wouldnt you say Mr Krauss and Mr Dawkins?