Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

Agrippina · **#1321** by **Agrippina** » May 25, 2016 2:52 pm

Where did the "universal observer" come from?

kyrani99 · **#1322** by **kyrani99** » May 25, 2016 3:10 pm

Agrippina wrote:
Fallible wrote:Kyani believes consciousness is something extant and separate from individuals, to be drawn down from, like a big lake. However she also thinks it exists outside the universe, but seems reluctant to consider the problems this causes her in terms of how it can be drawn down from by individuals. To get around this, she says that it can be accessed during meditation, at the point where the personal self vanishes (she thinks the personal self vanishes during meditation), and one (which one with no personal self?) stops thinking to merely observe. One (which one?) is then experiencing pure consciousness without the use of the bodily senses. How this experiencing is henceforth recorded, enabling it to be made sense of and then translated to other personal selves, remains insufficiently accounted for or explained.

Maybe she's one of those people who can "switch off" their mind. My DH seems to be able to just stop thinking and fall asleep. If I try to "meditate" my brain goes "ooooh look a bird" "hmmm did I lock the door" "did I say the wrong thing on Ratskep" all at the same time. I would like to know how to make my personal self vanish long enough for me to get a full night's sleep, without dreaming. Maybe she can explain that to me.

You say "If I try to "meditate" my brain goes............." This is everyone's initial experience. Meditation is only a matter of training. Use a mantra to begin with or use your breathing because it is always there. It provides an anchor. Observe the in-breath, then the out-breath, then the in-breath etc., every time there is a distraction, notice that you have a distraction and return to the observation of the breath. It is just a matter of practice. When your concentration has become steady, you will spontaneous meditate.

Dreamless sleep happens in advanced stages of meditation.
But there is another problem and that is that you can still be influenced in sleep. It is possible to arouse into lighter sleep or awaken someone by some strongly related person posing a threat. That doesn't mean this is happening to you. If you have some issues in mind, these too can awaken you from sleep.

If you learn to meditate you will need less sleep. In the Zen Buddhist and other longer Buddhist retreat that I have done, I have towards the end of the retreat meditated through the last 48 to 72 hours. I found that I had enormous amounts of energy and needed very little sleep (3 to 4 hours) in the next few days after the retreat. So I would recommend that if you have any trouble sleeping use the time to meditate. Even five minutes a day, done consistently every day brings benefit and you can then build it up from there.

Also you can do chores in meditative way for training so you don't have to allocate a lot of special time to meditate. For instance having a shower, be aware of the sound of the water, the feel of the water on your skin, the feel of the soap etc. Use these as anchors to train your mind. If you are cooking then pay the same attention to the actions, eg when you are chopping onions, there is only chopping onions, when stirring the pot, there is only stirring the pot etc.

Agrippina · **#1323** by **Agrippina** » May 25, 2016 3:19 pm

Don't be silly, I'm 105 years old, I don't need much sleep, seeing I'm going to be doing lots of it very shortly.

Besides, I have Aspergers. My brain never turns off, even when I'm asleep!

Seriously kyrani, I don't want to annoy you, but you really are trying hard to convince us to believe in some really bizarre nonsense.

kyrani99 · **#1324** by **kyrani99** » May 25, 2016 3:21 pm

Fallible wrote:Also, she hasn't explained how one (which one?) can observe without thinking. The word 'awareness' has been invoked, with the qualifier 'pure', but we haven't managed to get past how awareness is just to know and perceive, which is just to interpret or understand, which requires thought, as well as one's physical senses. As does observation.

Awareness is just to know and perceive.. agree.
No going to interpret and understand for meditation.
Just be aware. You can use observation through the senses eg looking at some image but it is better to do observation only mentally, eg mental sound or mantra as an anchor. When distracting ideas arise, note them and return to being aware. Most people train themselves with some anchor as I discussed in the post I made for Agrippa.
You can use a koan, eg "who am I" but this is not about trying to find an intellectual answer. Who is it who is aware?

Buddhist teachers use koan that can't be intellectualized for this purpose, eg.,
"show me your original face before your parent's were born"
"show me the sound of the one hand clapping". etc.

kyrani99 · **#1325** by **kyrani99** » May 25, 2016 3:27 pm

Agrippina wrote:Don't be silly, I'm 105 years old, I don't need much sleep, seeing I'm going to be doing lots of it very shortly.

Besides, I have Aspergers. My brain never turns off, even when I'm asleep!

Seriously kyrani, I don't want to annoy you, but you really are trying hard to convince us to believe in some really bizarre nonsense.

Why elect to be "doing lots of it very shortly", you might have a lot more time here.

No I don't want to convince you of anything. Everyone has their own path. Whatever path you tread, tread it faithfully to the end, if you are a true enquirer and have love in your heart, you will find Truth.

If you have Aspergers then maybe if you gradually build a meditation routine you will get benefit. Start with just a few minutes a day. Don't try to do too much, it will only discourage you. It is about training and being kind to yourself.

kyrani99 · **#1326** by **kyrani99** » May 25, 2016 3:36 pm

Agrippina wrote:Where did the "universal observer" come from?

where from? :dunno:

All I know is that it is eternal. :jump:

Arnold Layne · **#1327** by **Arnold Layne** » May 25, 2016 5:27 pm

kyrani99 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Where did the "universal observer" come from?

where from?
All I know is that it is eternal.

No you don't.

Have you met Little Idiot, by the way? You'd like him.

Sendraks · **#1328** by **Sendraks** » May 25, 2016 5:33 pm

kyrani99 wrote:Why elect to be "doing lots of it very shortly", you might have a lot more time here.

Nope. Evidentially there is no choice in the matter.

kyrani99 wrote:No I don't want to convince you of anything. Everyone has their own path. Whatever path you tread, tread it faithfully to the end, if you are a true enquirer and have love in your heart, you will find Truth.

Please take your odious preaching elsewhere.

Fallible · **#1329** by **Fallible** » May 25, 2016 10:02 pm

kyrani99 wrote:
Fallible wrote:Kyani believes consciousness is something extant and separate from individuals, to be drawn down from, like a big lake. However she also thinks it exists outside the universe, but seems reluctant to consider the problems this causes her in terms of how it can be drawn down from by individuals. To get around this, she says that it can be accessed during meditation, at the point where the personal self vanishes (she thinks the personal self vanishes during meditation), and one (which one with no personal self?) stops thinking to merely observe. One (which one?) is then experiencing pure consciousness without the use of the bodily senses. How this experiencing is henceforth recorded, enabling it to be made sense of and then translated to other personal selves, remains insufficiently accounted for or explained.
note:my emphasis.

My explanations.
Warning: I cannot explain without bringing up "spiritual" discussion.

Your imagery of "drawn down from a big lake" has some merit.
There is a Universal Observer (not to use the word "God").
The Universal Observer is:
1. Changeless Truth / Absolute Being,
2. Pure Consciousness and is the source of all consciousness but it is not all consciousness combined) and
3. Supreme/ Absolute Bliss.

The Universal Observer has brought into existence (note: spiritual existence is a quality that is independent of an observer) separate conscious beings, you might want to call them spirits or souls but these words have all manner of connotations that have been attributed to them.

All of this is outside of the created realm, i.e., the universe. It is in the spiritual realm. From my experience there are separate conscious beings because enlightenment is in a sense about "awakening in the Presence". It does lead to "being one with the One". So consciousness is not "drawn down from" by individuals. Rather each individual is a spiritual being, which means it has consciousness. And that consciousness was separated out from the "Big Lake" in bringing it into existence.

Now personal self is the idea of a doer. The body is only an illusory entity, which was brought into being when you as conscious being selected to observe it. The body is in a sense the same as putting on a virtual reality glove and visual screen glasses to enter into a virtual reality. You become a doer in that reality, when really you are merely an observer/ perceiver.

In deep meditation and more so at the point just prior to enlightenment, the personal self vanishes.
I will use my virtual reality to explain this.
In my analogy this disappearance is the same as the observer/perceiver suddenly turning away from the avatar/ personal self that they are in the virtual reality and remembering who they really are. While engrossed in the virtual world they believe themselves to be the personal self, but when they are no longer distracted by the virtual reality they realize the virtual world is not real and that they have true existence in an Ultimate Reality. They realize that they are the one that experiences pure consciousness, which means they realize that they are a conscious being and not the avatar /personal self in the virtual reality. The personal self is made conscious through the conscious being. Through the personal self/bodymind, conscious being is able to have physical experiences, i.e., experiences in the virtual reality, though the senses.

Your last question
"How this experiencing is henceforth recorded, enabling it to be made sense of and then translated to other personal selves"
is very significant.
If there was only conscious beings bringing manifestations into being through observation then there would not be a shared physical reality. Only by a Universal Observer can a single, shared physical reality be brought into existence. This means that there is a huge matrix of information/knowledge that is selected and observed, otherwise there cannot be any manifest universe or universes. This matrix or field of information/knowledge is the Universal Mind (dare I use the words of physicist Paul Davis and say "The Mind of God"). This field of information/knowledge enables inter-connection between personal selves. Where the personal selves are related there is entanglement and that entanglement exists within this field of knowledge. Every event, change, experience is recorded in this field and can be accessed, with some limitations. Your personal knowledge, that which you do not want to share, comes under your free will to maintain private or share.

I know you will not like me saying this but all paranormal experiences occur due to the existence of this field of knowledge, the ability of individuals to connect, become aware of knowledge and relate through this connectivity and knowledge and especially where there is entanglement.

This field of knowledge cannot be erased but it can be appended. One piece of evidence for this is that when a person has lost a limb or some body part, they are still aware of it as if it still exists. If they make some perception of it being gone, then they no longer have that perception. This does not mean that the information is lost, only that the part of the matrix/ field that describes /is selected for in bring the limb or body part into being has been appended to include new information that the limb is no longer physically manifest.

I think that it is possible to regrow a limb or body part if this can be utilized. I believe that because cancer comes into being precisely because of appending this field and can again be reverted back to normal cells by again appending the field of information. So as this is the manifest process, then stem cells can be influenced to grow a new limb. Newts can and do just that.

Fuck's sake.

Fallible · **#1330** by **Fallible** » May 25, 2016 10:06 pm

kyrani99 wrote:
Fallible wrote:Also, she hasn't explained how one (which one?) can observe without thinking. The word 'awareness' has been invoked, with the qualifier 'pure', but we haven't managed to get past how awareness is just to know and perceive, which is just to interpret or understand, which requires thought, as well as one's physical senses. As does observation.

Awareness is just to know and perceive.. agree.
No going to interpret and understand for meditation.
Just be aware. You can use observation through the senses eg looking at some image but it is better to do observation only mentally, eg mental sound or mantra as an anchor. When distracting ideas arise, note them and return to being aware. Most people train themselves with some anchor as I discussed in the post I made for Agrippa.
You can use a koan, eg "who am I" but this is not about trying to find an intellectual answer. Who is it who is aware?

Buddhist teachers use koan that can't be intellectualized for this purpose, eg.,
"show me your original face before your parent's were born"
"show me the sound of the one hand clapping". etc.

Stand down on the didacticism. You're teaching your grandmother to suck eggs. Of course, and true to my personal predictions, none of this comes close to resolving any of the issues pointed out to you time and time again.

surreptitious57 · **#1331** by **surreptitious57** » May 25, 2016 11:35 pm

kyrani99 wrote:
Science is based on experimental observation and from the findings hopefully
developing a theory. It is based on evidence not proofs. The theories are falsifiable

A hypothesis can be testable or non testable. If it is non testable then it is non scientific for it cannot be subject to
potential falsification. Even if actually true. If it is testable then it can be subject to potential falsification. I would
avoid using theory as a substitute for hypothesis as it has a very precise meaning in science which is not the same as
the lay definition. As it is a formal body of work that will incorporate multiple laws and principles which collectively
has been subjected to the most rigorous testing possible. It is the closest science gets to determining that something
is absolutely true. It cannot of course actually claim it is for it only deals in evidence not proof. But as close as it can

surreptitious57 · **#1332** by **surreptitious57** » May 26, 2016 12:09 am

kyrani99 wrote:
There is no evidence that consciousness is part of the mind. And there is no evidence
that either the mind nor consciousness are generated by the brain. It is only suggestion

Mind and consciousness are both functions of the brain else how are you able to read and understand these words
I have typed ? Your brain processes what your eyes are seeing and any response that you may be formulating. And
you could not do this now if you were not both awake [ consciousness ] and capable of thinking abstractly [ mind ]

SafeAsMilk · **#1333** by **SafeAsMilk** » May 26, 2016 2:21 am

kyrani99 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Where did the "universal observer" come from?

where from?
All I know is that it is eternal.

Stow the preaching, please.

Agrippina · **#1334** by **Agrippina** » May 26, 2016 3:15 am

kyrani99 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Don't be silly, I'm 105 years old, I don't need much sleep, seeing I'm going to be doing lots of it very shortly.

Besides, I have Aspergers. My brain never turns off, even when I'm asleep!

Seriously kyrani, I don't want to annoy you, but you really are trying hard to convince us to believe in some really bizarre nonsense.

Why elect to be "doing lots of it very shortly", you might have a lot more time here.

No I don't want to convince you of anything. Everyone has their own path. Whatever path you tread, tread it faithfully to the end, if you are a true enquirer and have love in your heart, you will find Truth.

If you have Aspergers then maybe if you gradually build a meditation routine you will get benefit. Start with just a few minutes a day. Don't try to do too much, it will only discourage you. It is about training and being kind to yourself.

Preachy nonsense.

Try just one day of hearing every single sound in your environment, hearing every conversation going on around you, being told "it's all in your head", being too afraid to meet new people because you've been told you're "weird" for 90% of your longish life, then when you can summon up the courage to go to a social gathering, being overwhelmed by the noise, the people, the movement, opening up an internet forum to read something and images of emojis bouncing up and down making you want to bang your head on the desk, then tell me "to gradually build a routine". Jesus! :roll:

Agrippina · **#1335** by **Agrippina** » May 26, 2016 3:16 am

kyrani99 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Where did the "universal observer" come from?

where from?
All I know is that it is eternal. jump

You don't know that. You think that, you've been brainwashed into thinking that. Someone lied to you about it. At least you admit you don't know. I'll give you that.

kyrani99 · **#1336** by **kyrani99** » May 26, 2016 12:10 pm

GrahamH wrote:
kyrani99 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW6Mq352f0E
Explained ! The Double Slit Experiment Thomas Campbell ex NASA physicist.
Showing that even if you allow the detector running but don’t collect the data you still get the same result as if you had switched it off.

That's a claim I haven't heard before. Photon detectors in place and working but no tape in the data logger and interference patterns result.

The claim is here ~2:30 https://youtu.be/LW6Mq352f0E?t=2m18s

Any physics types here know what that's about?

[ETA]
This topic on Physics Forums suggests the calim is bunk:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/d ... ng.414617/

The answer here is not quite right. And I want to answer it without bias, to give all sides so I need a bit more time.

Shrunk · **#1337** by **Shrunk** » May 26, 2016 1:40 pm

kyrani99 wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
kyrani99 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW6Mq352f0E
Explained ! The Double Slit Experiment Thomas Campbell ex NASA physicist.
Showing that even if you allow the detector running but don’t collect the data you still get the same result as if you had switched it off.

That's a claim I haven't heard before. Photon detectors in place and working but no tape in the data logger and interference patterns result.

The claim is here ~2:30 https://youtu.be/LW6Mq352f0E?t=2m18s

Any physics types here know what that's about?

[ETA]
This topic on Physics Forums suggests the calim is bunk:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/d ... ng.414617/

The answer here is not quite right. And I want to answer it without bias, to give all sides so I need a bit more time.

Right. Having proven your incompetence in neuroscience and oncology, you're now gong to spew ignorance on the topic of quantum mechanics. :roll:

Your "spiritual" investigations obviously have not taught you much about humility, or accurate appraisal of one's own abilities.

GrahamH · **#1338** by **GrahamH** » May 26, 2016 2:48 pm

kyrani99 wrote:
Fallible wrote:Also, she hasn't explained how one (which one?) can observe without thinking. The word 'awareness' has been invoked, with the qualifier 'pure', but we haven't managed to get past how awareness is just to know and perceive, which is just to interpret or understand, which requires thought, as well as one's physical senses. As does observation.

Awareness is just to know and perceive..

I think your separation of thinking and perceiving is pure fantasy. There is surely work to be done to work out what is to be perceived, and to construct thoughts. That we are oblivious to this work merely indicates that it isn't the work of conscious awareness, but that the perceptions, experience of thought is a product of processes that are not in themselves conscious.

Various experiments reveal that what we simply seem to apprehend with no effort is the result of some sort of evaluation that we are unaware of.

Arnold Layne · **#1339** by **Arnold Layne** » May 26, 2016 8:10 pm

I suspect things are going to get a bit quieter in here.

Going from assertions to evidence is a greater step than most can manage.

Unless, of course, you have a different idea of what is considered evidence, as many seem to have.

surreptitious57 · **#1340** by **surreptitious57** » May 27, 2016 5:39 am

I would argue that there is a difference between perception and knowledge. Perception is a subtle awareness of something without fully understanding it whereas knowledge is an understanding of it. So for example I can perceive rocket science is
a difficult subject to master although I know next to nothing about it. And I think that while perception and knowledge are different that they are on the same spectrum albeit at opposite ends

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