Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1561  Postby Agrippina » Jun 05, 2016 4:51 pm

kyrani99 wrote:Subjective experience is the evidence for paranormal experience.
The real evidence for paranormal experience is subjective and not falsifiable, outside the realm of science (at least at present) and an undeniable reality but not for all people. The paranormal experience I speak of is the very nectar of life, the feeling of being loved by another sentient human being.

Well there you go. "subjective and not falsifiable"

This is not some imagination nor is it the emotion reaction to physical cues as Richard Dawkins suggested when he said he knew his wife loves him because of the looks and smiles etc that she gives him. Looks and smiles and any and all other words and gestures of course can be contrived, so how can they be evidence of anything? All he is saying is that he experiences himself as a purely mechanical physical entity. It is no use pointing to emotion because emotion is a series of processes that mainly take place in the body. There are ideas involved, which point at issues, but emotional reactivity is bodily reactivity.

A feeling is the appraisal of the bodily reactivity. For example if the ideas that invoked the bodily reactivity indicated a threat or danger then the appraisal of fear is made.

Never heard of the "fight or flight response"? There's nothing paranormal about that.

If the threat is concealed then the appraisal cannot properly be made. The person may simply be aware of being hot all of a sudden or feeling high charge in their body or feeling lots of energy and wrongly attributing it to good health.

Or a malfunctioning thyroid gland.

The experience of being loved is conscious, subjective experience of someone else’s spiritual connection with you.

It's not a "spiritual connection". People know that other people "love" them (I prefer "have feelings of affection for them") because of their behaviour. People who care for you do unselfish things for you. For example only someone who "loves" you, and who isn't being paid to do it, would take care of you if you were unable to take care of yourself. I certainly wouldn't administer an enema to someone I didn't care about unless I was being paid to do it, but I would do it for my husband. It's not something you sense, it's demonstrated by their actions.

And while a feeling of being in love may be fabricated using a concealed threat as is done in the “fall in love at first sight cheat” and for those unaware of the cheat can be mistaken for love, at least in the immediate term, the experience of being loved is always a genuine experience precisely because it is a paranormal experience. It does gives rise to a feeling of well-being, but the experience of being loved is outside of sensory experience and endures even when the other person is not physically present.

Falling "in love at first sight" is not a cheat, it's a hormonal response to something we find attractive in someone else. Actually all feelings of love are merely hormonal responses. We experience pleasure when we're with the person we love, we get a rush of hormones when they do something we like, or bring an unexpected gift. The real test is when someone unselfishly loves someone who doesn't care for them, or who rejects their displays of affection. These people are known as "stalkers" or "parents".
[/quote]

Really there's a thread about evolution and cancer? Care to post a link?

Sorry, but there's nothing paranormal about "love":

"Falling in love causes our body to release a flood of feel-good chemicals that trigger specific physical reactions," said Pat Mumby, PhD, co-director of the Loyola Sexual Wellness Clinic and professor, Department of Psychiatry & Behavioral Neurosciences, Loyola University Chicago Stritch School of Medicine (SSOM). "This internal elixir of love is responsible for making our cheeks flush, our palms sweat and our hearts race."

Levels of these substances, which include dopamine, adrenaline and norepinephrine, increase when two people fall in love. Dopamine creates feelings of euphoria while adrenaline and norepinephrine are responsible for the pitter-patter of the heart, restlessness and overall preoccupation that go along with experiencing love.

MRI scans indicate that love lights up the pleasure center of the brain. When we fall in love, blood flow increases in this area, which is the same part of the brain implicated in obsessive-compulsive behaviors.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140206155244.htm
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1562  Postby Agrippina » Jun 05, 2016 4:56 pm

kyrani99 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:It's not that we "don't Like" the supernatural, or that we're "against" it. Speaking for myself, I'm indifferent because like gods, I don't think anything else supernatural exists. You can no more read my mind than I can tell what the weather's going to do tomorrow without looking at a forecast. At least for that, there is a forecast, for your nonsense, there's nothing.


You maybe indifferent but that is not the case for most of the others. They have a firm belief and that belief is based on their lack of experience.

Nope I disagree. I think the others also think your drawings are rubbish.

And the scientific evidence is weak. It is weak because there is no way to really test for a subjective experience.

There you go. If something can't be tested, then it's not interesting. Looking for ghosts is a waste of time.

But the lack of experience does not allow anyone to say that another person's experience is only imagination or delusional.

I don't say anyone's personal experience is anything like that. I do say that personal experience is not science.

There are millions of people who have had paranormal experiences and all of them are being written of as coincidences by skeptics just on a say so.

Because that's exactly what they are: coincidences.

No one can read another person's mind.

Exactly. And yet here you are pretending that you can do exactly that.

The only thing that can be done is to cause that person to mentally address or mentally answer the other person. That then is in the common mind.

So why don't you do it with me. Communicate with me using only your mind. I'm listening. :roll:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1563  Postby GrahamH » Jun 05, 2016 4:56 pm

Of course "remote viewing" is falsifiable, and the attempt made here has been falsified.
Why do you think that?
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1564  Postby Agrippina » Jun 05, 2016 4:57 pm

kyrani99 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Boy do you have it wrong. :nono: :nono: Now take it down.

ETA: At first I was mad, now I'm lolling my head off at some of those. My dear, I really think you shouldn't give up your day job just yet, you're not a very good artist. :roll:


Thank you for your feedback
I am retired. And I am not a good artist but that should not stop me from doing an experiment.


I think you should find other things to experiment with. Like science for instance. Stop wasting your time with nonsense. :crazy:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1565  Postby the_5th_ape » Jun 05, 2016 5:24 pm

kyrani99 wrote:
I am still working on the medical evidence and that won't come in a week and maybe a lot lot lot longer than that.

Underlined: That implies, you don't have the urge/interest to show us any medical evidence = You don't have proof to show us that you had cancer, and now free. Your interest is more in drawing funny images and typing endless imaginative stories that none of us are interested in.
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1566  Postby Shrunk » Jun 05, 2016 5:24 pm

Scar wrote:Bla bla bla. So many words yet so little substance.


You're actually reading them all?
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1567  Postby Shrunk » Jun 05, 2016 5:27 pm

GrahamH wrote:Of course "remote viewing" is falsifiable, and the attempt made here has been falsified.


Yes, that's one of the strange things with this line of argument. Claims are made that are directly testable thru the scientific method, but then the claim is also made that they cannot be tested. Usually, of course, after the scientific testing has been done and not produced the results the supernaturalists had hope for.
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1568  Postby Arnold Layne » Jun 05, 2016 5:33 pm

GrahamH wrote:Of course "remote viewing" is falsifiable, and the attempt made here has been falsified.

No no no!

Remote viewing becomes impossible when observed. :lol:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1569  Postby Alan B » Jun 05, 2016 5:50 pm

That drawing of 'me' looks nothing like my avatar. :snooty:
I have NO BELIEF in the existence of a God or gods. I do not have to offer evidence nor do I have to determine absence of evidence because I do not ASSERT that a God does or does not or gods do or do not exist.
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1570  Postby BlackBart » Jun 05, 2016 5:54 pm

.
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1571  Postby Agrippina » Jun 05, 2016 6:06 pm

Actually guys we should give kyrani credit for persistence and endurance. Such a shame that she wastes her energy and abilities with this nonsense. So let's be nice. :ask:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1572  Postby Arnold Layne » Jun 05, 2016 8:31 pm

When you say abilities, Aggie, I presume you mean in story telling? :ask:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1573  Postby scott1328 » Jun 05, 2016 11:21 pm

Don't forget her skills at blaming cancer victims for their condition
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1574  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jun 06, 2016 1:03 am

kyrani99 wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote: Paranormal, supernatural, call it whatever you want. Any way you slice it, there's no evidence for it and you certainly haven't provided any with your test. All you've shown us is a person who claims to have remote viewing abilities doing drawings that are exactly what we would expect from someone with no remote viewing abilities.

Paranormal abilities are normal for many people, probably more than half the population.

Obviously it's not anything like half the population, because of all the people I've known in my life, not a single one has had a substantiated paranormal ability. The best I've ever seen is on par with the abject failure you've presented in this thread.

Maybe it is the difference between believing in the supernatural and not believing.

Look, you understand why saying "But you won't see it if you don't already believe in it!" is stupid, right? It's a bald appeal to gullibility.

It is false to think in terms of having remote viewing abilities. These are common. It is about the conditions under which you may attempt to remote view. If there are unfavorable conditions then one can't remote view.

Yeah, and if the stars are aligned, then I can't read your horoscope. Isn't it funny that the conditions are never favorable when it would be possible to confirm remote viewing? Don't you think this should tell you something?

If I had a sore hand and couldn't hold a brush properly in my hand and thus couldn't draw at all, it doesn't mean I can't draw at all. I am not an artist so my drawings are not very good but it is not that I can't draw at all.

Yeah, well if someone claimed repeatedly and vehemently that they were an artist, but every single time you asked them to confirm this they complained about their sore hand, wouldn't you wonder?

kyrani99 wrote:But I have done hundreds of other remote viewing and I have had very good results.

I don't believe you, and you certainly have given me good reason to be skeptical.
kyrani99 wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Yeah, and I summon unicorns. I can't do it right now, you see, but when I do it at home with nobody watching, it works every time!

You can't seriously expect anyone to believe anything you're saying here. Your experiment succeeds, you're right. Your experiment fails, you're right. You know what it's called when you've given no way for you to be wrong?


No this is not what I am saying. You are saying that because this one experiment failed that it counts absolutely.

No, I'm saying you made an extraordinary claim and provided no evidence for it. In fact, what you provided looks exactly what one would expect if you couldn't remote view. There is no scientific literature confirming remote viewing, there are no successful rigorous experiments. All we have are your claims, and they are wanting. If I claimed I could summon unicorns, wouldn't you be skeptical? If I then tried to summon a unicorn and failed spectacularly, wouldn't you be even more skeptical?
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1575  Postby Agrippina » Jun 06, 2016 6:06 am

Arnold Layne wrote:When you say abilities, Aggie, I presume you mean in story telling? :ask:


Yep.

scott1328 wrote:Don't forget her skills at blaming cancer victims for their condition


This as well. :thumbup:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1576  Postby the_5th_ape » Jun 06, 2016 3:14 pm

Agrippina wrote:
Sorry, but there's nothing paranormal about "love":

"Falling in love causes our body to release a flood of feel-good chemicals that trigger specific physical reactions," said Pat Mumby, PhD, co-director of the Loyola Sexual Wellness Clinic and professor, Department of Psychiatry & Behavioral Neurosciences, Loyola University Chicago Stritch School of Medicine (SSOM). "This internal elixir of love is responsible for making our cheeks flush, our palms sweat and our hearts race."

Levels of these substances, which include dopamine, adrenaline and norepinephrine, increase when two people fall in love. Dopamine creates feelings of euphoria while adrenaline and norepinephrine are responsible for the pitter-patter of the heart, restlessness and overall preoccupation that go along with experiencing love.

MRI scans indicate that love lights up the pleasure center of the brain. When we fall in love, blood flow increases in this area, which is the same part of the brain implicated in obsessive-compulsive behaviors.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140206155244.htm


Yeah, but those are the "after-effects" of falling in love :think:
What causes love? :ask:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1577  Postby the_5th_ape » Jun 06, 2016 3:24 pm

Agrippina wrote:Actually guys we should give kyrani credit for persistence and endurance.

I agree :thumbup:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1578  Postby the_5th_ape » Jun 06, 2016 3:30 pm

kyrani99 wrote:
... I have a lot of homework to do to answer on the other thread about evolution and cancer.

Which forum? Do you have the link?
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1579  Postby the_5th_ape » Jun 06, 2016 3:33 pm

Agrippina wrote:

The only thing that can be done is to cause that person to mentally address or mentally answer the other person. That then is in the common mind.

So why don't you do it with me. Communicate with me using only your mind. I'm listening. :roll:


:popcorn:
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Re: Can personal experience be evidence of the paranormal?

#1580  Postby Shrunk » Jun 06, 2016 4:37 pm

For anyone who came late to this discussion, blue triangle kindly and generously provided us, several weeks ago, with a link to a website containing what we have on his authority is the absolute best scientific evidence for remote viewing. The link can be found near the end of this post. The discussion that ensued was also quite productive and revealing. A warning: I did use some bad words that might offend those of more delicate sensibilities.
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