A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#481  Postby GrahamH » May 14, 2015 5:41 pm

ughaibu wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:That is the big difference between current robots and humans.
By definition, the kind of machine under discussion runs an algorithm, and this entails that it produces exactly the same result, regardless of who performs the calculation. From this it should be immediately obvious to anybody who has ever eaten out in company, that there can never be such a machine that solves the problem of what to order in a restaurant.
So, another way to show that Penrose's thesis is so clearly correct, that it hardly seems worth stating. Particularly, as even after it has been stated, the god-of-the-gaps mob continue to deny it, regardless of the degrees of idiocy that they need to exceed to do so.


An algorithm can be considered to include all the initial conditions. Choosing a meal in a restaurant overlooks a vast range of initial conditions. In comparable circumstances the 'algorithm' would be no more predictable, and need be no less able, given those unspecified conditions, than the human.

In particular humans have very little idea why they choose what they do. The underlying influences are hidden from conscious introspection so we approximate and simplify to the extreme.
Why do you think that?
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#482  Postby John Platko » May 14, 2015 5:42 pm

CdesignProponentsist wrote:Method of design does not equate to method of operation. You missed the target.


Even though, a heuristic still requires an algorithm, just not one specific to the problem. So your failed point is still irrelevant.


My point was not that machines don't require alogrithms, :nono: but rather that machines are not limited to what is designed in alogrithm. Therefore your rebuttal fails.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#483  Postby CdesignProponentsist » May 14, 2015 6:04 pm

John Platko wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:Method of design does not equate to method of operation. You missed the target.


Even though, a heuristic still requires an algorithm, just not one specific to the problem. So your failed point is still irrelevant.


My point was not that machines don't require alogrithms, :nono: but rather that machines are not limited to what is designed in alogrithm. Therefore your rebuttal fails.


Sure, most of the logic that ended up in your computer was designed by a machine using a heuristic not an algorithm.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#484  Postby CdesignProponentsist » May 14, 2015 6:10 pm

John Platko wrote:... but rather that machines are not limited to what is designed in alogrithm.


They are limited as much as they are designed to be limited. Heuristics are designed to be less specific to one problem, but still are limited to the type of problem they are solving.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#485  Postby savithru » May 14, 2015 6:20 pm

Actually Penrose's argument is quite simple he starts off with statements or computations where a computer or a machine will never halt or will run forever.

For example:

Code: Select all
Find a natural number which is not a sum of powers of 2.


Code: Select all
Find an even number greater than 2 which is not the sum of two primes. (Goldbach's conjecture)


We know that the first computation will never halt and we are not sure whether the second computation will halt or not but according to the conjecture the computer will never halt. Now based on such computations where a machine will never halt Penrose speculates if there is an underlying algorithm or a procedure that we humans are using to deduce whether a given computation performed on a natural number halts or not.

Penrose takes us through a series of arguments where he proves that such an sound halting algorithmic procedure encompassing all known computations known to human beings if it exists will fail to stop for one given computation when we actually know that the computation in fact does not stop. This is a contradiction the algorithmic procedure A encompassing all known computations was assumed to be the underlying procedure used by human beings to ascertain whether a computation will halt or not but as we have just now proved there exists a computation where we know that the computation will not halt but the procedure fails to halt and therefore A cannot be the underlying procedure used by human beings.

This proof is known as the Penrose's version of the Godel-Turing theorem. His proof is quite obvious for anyone to see and its an very important proof for mystics like me who holds on to the position,

Code: Select all
D. Awareness cannot be explained by physical, computational or any other scientific terms.


When the whole scientific community sidelined the most fundamental question facing biologists which is, What is consciousness? hats off to Sir Roger Penrose for defending that a Theory Of Everything must incorporate or explain at least some aspects of Conscious understanding in scientific terms and he has been right on the money that conscious thinking is non-computable and its not something which can be explained with in the current physics as we know of.

Its been long known to Indian traditional scholars that mind and brain are two different things and that dualism or Platonic dualism is a fact and I congratulate and appreciate Sir Roger Penrose for being a mathematical physicist and intuitively arriving at a conclusion on a similar lines.

Mind and Brain are two different things. If this is not true Indian philosophy will collapse like a house of cards. I will convert to an atheist and go and hide myself if it is shown that mind and brain are not two different things. Dualism of mind and body is albeit necessary for Indian philosophy to succeed as described in the Samkhya school of Indian philosophical system. This dualism of mind and body should not be confused with Cartesian dualism where the mind and body are made up of entirely different substances.


By including mind in the realm of matter, Samkhya avoids one of the most serious pitfalls of Cartesian dualism, the violation of physical conservation laws. Because mind is an evolute of matter, mental events are granted causal efficacy and are therefore able to initiate bodily motions.


Eugene Wigner was a strong proponent of mind-body dualism and he argued that mind-body dualism will again be acceptable in the mainstream sciences. Mind-Body dualism or the Many-Minds problem is also at the heart of the Measurement problem in Quantum mechanics.
Last edited by savithru on May 14, 2015 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#486  Postby lucek » May 14, 2015 6:53 pm

Unfounded at best.

First the leap in logic that A can't be solved by algorithm X there for can't be solved by any computation is not even wrong.

Next we haven't even established C to be anything.

Again without including quantum effects we can model small parts of the brain and they function exactly like the real thing.

In short his argument is neither sound nor based off anything that resembles our current understanding of the mind and C. We are left with little reason to consider his reasoning then.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#487  Postby John Platko » May 14, 2015 7:07 pm

CdesignProponentsist wrote:
John Platko wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:Method of design does not equate to method of operation. You missed the target.


Even though, a heuristic still requires an algorithm, just not one specific to the problem. So your failed point is still irrelevant.


My point was not that machines don't require alogrithms, :nono: but rather that machines are not limited to what is designed in alogrithm. Therefore your rebuttal fails.


Sure, most of the logic that ended up in your computer was designed by a machine using a heuristic not an algorithm.


Yes. algorithms are just not good at exploring huge solution spaces. In essence many parts of computers are designed by engineers managing the actual designer, which is a computer, running a heuristic, composed of many algorithms.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#488  Postby lucek » May 14, 2015 7:24 pm

John Platko wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:
John Platko wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:Method of design does not equate to method of operation. You missed the target.


Even though, a heuristic still requires an algorithm, just not one specific to the problem. So your failed point is still irrelevant.


My point was not that machines don't require alogrithms, :nono: but rather that machines are not limited to what is designed in alogrithm. Therefore your rebuttal fails.


Sure, most of the logic that ended up in your computer was designed by a machine using a heuristic not an algorithm.


Yes. algorithms are just not good at exploring huge solution spaces. In essence many parts of computers are designed by engineers managing the actual designer, which is a computer, running a heuristic, composed of many algorithms.

Um heuristic are algorithms.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#489  Postby John Platko » May 14, 2015 8:40 pm

lucek wrote:
John Platko wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:
John Platko wrote:

My point was not that machines don't require alogrithms, :nono: but rather that machines are not limited to what is designed in alogrithm. Therefore your rebuttal fails.


Sure, most of the logic that ended up in your computer was designed by a machine using a heuristic not an algorithm.


Yes. algorithms are just not good at exploring huge solution spaces. In essence many parts of computers are designed by engineers managing the actual designer, which is a computer, running a heuristic, composed of many algorithms.

Um heuristic are algorithms.


As I, and many others, use the two words there is an important distinction between them. As explained here and here. Hopefully saving me the effort of doing so.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#490  Postby lucek » May 14, 2015 8:51 pm

John Platko wrote:
lucek wrote:
John Platko wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:



Yes. algorithms are just not good at exploring huge solution spaces. In essence many parts of computers are designed by engineers managing the actual designer, which is a computer, running a heuristic, composed of many algorithms.

Um heuristic are algorithms.


As I, and many others, use the two words there is an important distinction between them. As explained here and here. Hopefully saving me the effort of doing so.

You apparently are going to have to explain because your examples are lacking. Use the video as an example.

Code: Select all
Chose block Save "easy" for last
Place block
Check if block violates rules
repeat

It is an algorithm.

An algorithm (pronounced AL-go-rith-um) is a procedure or formula for solving a problem.

The heuristic method
In optimization problems, heuristic algorithms can be used to find a solution close to the optimal solution in cases where finding the optimal solution is impractical. These algorithms work by getting closer and closer to the optimal solution as they progress. In principle, if run for an infinite amount of time, they will find the optimal solution. Their merit is that they can find a solution very close to the optimal solution in a relatively short time. Such algorithms include local search, tabu search, simulated annealing, and genetic algorithms. Some of them, like simulated annealing, are non-deterministic algorithms while others, like tabu search, are deterministic. When a bound on the error of the non-optimal solution is known, the algorithm is further categorized as an approximation algorithm.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#491  Postby CdesignProponentsist » May 14, 2015 9:15 pm

John Platko wrote:
As I, and many others, use the two words there is an important distinction between them. As explained here and here. Hopefully saving me the effort of doing so.


Heuristics employed to design computers as you pointed out, are not going to be of the type in your first link, unless you think computers are designed by giving it a stiff whack or rattling components in a box.

They would use a heuristic ALGORITHM. A set of instructions followed to achieve a desired goal.
Last edited by CdesignProponentsist on May 14, 2015 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#492  Postby GrahamH » May 14, 2015 9:16 pm

lucek wrote:You apparently are going to have to explain because your examples are lacking. Use the video as an example.

Code: Select all
Chose block Save "easy" for last
Place block
Check if block violates rules
repeat

It is an algorithm.


I think this is not an algorithm as written, but expanding 'place block' to a systematic (possibly pesudorandom) walk through the possible permutations would make it an algorithm.

The statement in the video that algorithms exclude creativity is wrong IMO. Algorithms can discover unexpected solutions. See Genetic Algorithms.
Why do you think that?
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#493  Postby lucek » May 14, 2015 9:24 pm

GrahamH wrote:
lucek wrote:You apparently are going to have to explain because your examples are lacking. Use the video as an example.

Code: Select all
Chose block Save "easy" for last
Place block
Check if block violates rules
repeat

It is an algorithm.


I think this is not an algorithm as written, but expanding 'place block' to a systematic (possibly pesudorandom) walk through the possible permutations would make it an algorithm.

The statement in the video that algorithms exclude creativity is wrong IMO. Algorithms can discover unexpected solutions. See Genetic Algorithms.

There is no reason to add that. Your opinion on what an algorithm is and it's definition seem to be at odds.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#494  Postby CdesignProponentsist » May 14, 2015 9:28 pm

The only requirements for an algorithm are that they contain a set of self contained step-by-step instructions to follow which will eventually end. The only thing that example needs is a way to end the routine.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#495  Postby lucek » May 14, 2015 9:39 pm

CdesignProponentsist wrote:The only requirements for an algorithm are that they contain a set of self contained step-by-step instructions to follow which will eventually end. The only thing that example needs is a way to end the routine.

True. I didn't add anthing but you are correct.Change line 4 to
Code: Select all
if any blocks left repeat

There no more infinite loop.

Could tweak it more but was just doing a quick summation of the example given.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#496  Postby GrahamH » May 14, 2015 9:44 pm

lucek wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
lucek wrote:You apparently are going to have to explain because your examples are lacking. Use the video as an example.

Code: Select all
Chose block Save "easy" for last
Place block
Check if block violates rules
repeat

It is an algorithm.


I think this is not an algorithm as written, but expanding 'place block' to a systematic (possibly pesudorandom) walk through the possible permutations would make it an algorithm.

The statement in the video that algorithms exclude creativity is wrong IMO. Algorithms can discover unexpected solutions. See Genetic Algorithms.

There is no reason to add that. Your opinion on what an algorithm is and it's definition seem to be at odds.


An algorithm (pronounced AL-go-rith-um) is a procedure or formula for solving a problem.


So you need a procedure for 'place block', and a procedure for determining 'easy' blocks.
These procedures could reference random values.


Otherwise you might as well reduce the 'algorithm' to ' Place blocks according to the rules'.
Last edited by GrahamH on May 14, 2015 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#497  Postby scott1328 » May 14, 2015 9:48 pm

As stated up thread numerous times stochastic algorithms are still algorithms.

A heuristic is a stochastic algorithm
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#498  Postby lucek » May 14, 2015 9:56 pm

GrahamH wrote:
lucek wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
lucek wrote:You apparently are going to have to explain because your examples are lacking. Use the video as an example.

Code: Select all
Chose block Save "easy" for last
Place block
Check if block violates rules
repeat

It is an algorithm.


I think this is not an algorithm as written, but expanding 'place block' to a systematic (possibly pesudorandom) walk through the possible permutations would make it an algorithm.

The statement in the video that algorithms exclude creativity is wrong IMO. Algorithms can discover unexpected solutions. See Genetic Algorithms.

There is no reason to add that. Your opinion on what an algorithm is and it's definition seem to be at odds.


An algorithm (pronounced AL-go-rith-um) is a procedure or formula for solving a problem.


So you need a procedure for 'place block', and a prrocedure for determining 'easy' blocks.

Otherwise you might as well reduce the 'algorithm' to ' Place blocks according to the rules'.

OK stop with this. I phrased what he said in such a way to show that it is the algorithm it is. Stop trying to beat out a distinction without a difference. Heuristic are algorithms. You might as well be arguing blue isn't a color.
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#499  Postby CdesignProponentsist » May 15, 2015 12:03 am

lucek wrote:
There no more infinite loop.


Good. Ain't nobody got time for that!
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Re: A machine can never ever surpass human intelligence

#500  Postby GrahamH » May 15, 2015 8:42 am

lucek wrote:OK stop with this. I phrased what he said in such a way to show that it is the algorithm it is. Stop trying to beat out a distinction without a difference. Heuristic are algorithms. You might as well be arguing blue isn't a color.



Then you failed.

The Feynman Algorithm:

Write down the problem.
Think real hard.
Write down the solution.



The misunderstanding in the linked video is in what is unstated. Using trail and error to find a solution is heuristic, but not an algorithm. A hueristic algorithm applies trial and error on a systematic procedure to find a solution more efficiently than a brute force method or a purely random trials.

I'm just pointing out that 'place a block' is where the work is done, and that can indeed be algorithmic.

It is also the bit where humans are ignorant of their own functioning and claim silly things about it being something that no algorithm can possibly do.
Why do you think that?
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