Oldskeptic wrote:

Andrew4Handel wrote: Our most disturbing perception (severe pain) is entirely mental. You don't see pain under a microscope or emanating from matter. It is private and subjective and not existant when we are unconscious

Well, you can fuck off with this bullshit. As someone that has lived with severe pain day and night for a number of years I can tell you that it is not mental and it does not go away when I sleep. And the fuck it's subjective. My back is fucked up from heavy lifting for most of my life. MRIs show exactly where the pain originates, and it isn't in my fucking head, and it isn't subjective. It's fucking real. It's physical.

To be fair, it's your brain that works out that there is pain. Phantom limb pain is an example that shows that location of pain is somehow worked out rather being where you feel it to be. That certainly doesn't mean that pain is mental in nature. Phantom limb pain doesn't go away by knowing the limb is gone, but get the inputs to the brain right with a mirror an it reprograms and stops representing a pain.
Unfortunately you can't do that with back pain.

Oldskeptic wrote:

Little Idiot wrote:2. there is, despite claims, no actual evidence of the brain creating awareness.

Besides all the evidence that self awareness is brain dependent of course. What there is no evidence for is self awareness independent of some sort of an organic living brain.

"It is always a good idea to remind ourselves of the facts, to remind ourselves of what we actually know. We know for a fact that all of our conscious states are caused by brain processes. This proposition is not up for grabs. There is a mystery that many philosophers are impressed by—how brain processes could cause consciousness—and there is, I think, a more serious mystery, faced by neurobiologists—how brain processes do in fact cause consciousness. But one thing we have to accept before we ever get going in this discussion is that, in fact, brain processes do cause consciousness."

(Searle, John. Mind, Language and Society: Philosophy in the Real World. New York: Basic Books, 1998. p. 51)

Teuton wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:

Andrew4Handel wrote: Our most disturbing perception (severe pain) is entirely mental. You don't see pain under a microscope or emanating from matter. It is private and subjective and not existant when we are unconscious

Well, you can fuck off with this bullshit. As someone that has lived with severe pain day and night for a number of years I can tell you that it is not mental and it does not go away when I sleep. And the fuck it's subjective. My back is fucked up from heavy lifting for most of my life. MRIs show exactly where the pain originates, and it isn't in my fucking head, and it isn't subjective. It's fucking real. It's physical.

To say that (the feeling of) pain is private and (ontically) subjective is not to say that it is unreal or nonphysical. Of course, a pain cannot exist unfelt: for it to be is for it to be felt (by something/somebody).

Of course the pain I feel is not to be felt by anyone else, but that does not mean that it is entirely mental. My doctors and medical exams put the lie to that.

Maybe you should consider what you write once in a while before you hit the submit button, and figure out whether it really has anything to do with what you're responding to?

What was that you were saying about colorless green ideas sleeping furiously?

Teuton wrote:

Oldskeptic wrote:

Little Idiot wrote:2. there is, despite claims, no actual evidence of the brain creating awareness.

Besides all the evidence that self awareness is brain dependent of course. What there is no evidence for is self awareness independent of some sort of an organic living brain.

"It is always a good idea to remind ourselves of the facts, to remind ourselves of what we actually know. We know for a fact that all of our conscious states are caused by brain processes. This proposition is not up for grabs. There is a mystery that many philosophers are impressed by—how brain processes could cause consciousness—and there is, I think, a more serious mystery, faced by neurobiologists—how brain processes do in fact cause consciousness. But one thing we have to accept before we ever get going in this discussion is that, in fact, brain processes do cause consciousness."

(Searle, John. Mind, Language and Society: Philosophy in the Real World. New York: Basic Books, 1998. p. 51)

The post by Oldskeptic and the quote from Searle are great example of playing the 'all the evidence' card. Very impressive, but of course is not the same as actually having and producing any evidence. It relies entirely on confirmation bias for its impressiveness.

As I stated elsewhere the question that (I believe) remains un-answerable is how the lump of meat is aware.
We can answer process questions about how the system works. We can model how and why awareness becomes self-awareness (consciousness) and the benefits to the organism of a model of itself in an environment. But these dont show how the system is a system with awareness, rather they must assume a system which is aware and then model its details.

Oldskeptic wrote:Of course the pain I feel is not to be felt by anyone else, but that does not mean that it is entirely mental. My doctors and medical exams put the lie to that.

It depends on what "entirely mental" means. If it means "entirely nonphysical", then pains are not entirely mental. Pain is a psychophysical phenomenon.

Little Idiot wrote:As I stated elsewhere the question that (I believe) remains un-answerable is how the lump of meat is aware.

Which is impressive to no one and nothing more than an argument from incredulity.

Little Idiot wrote:We can model how and why awareness becomes self-awareness (consciousness) and the benefits to the organism of a model of itself in an environment. But these dont show how the system is a system with awareness, rather they must assume a system which is aware and then model its details.

I'm sure you will continue to have many happy hours dreaming up ever convoluted ways of explaining how consciousness is something other than a product of physical processes, contained within a brain. If it keeps you happy, fair play to you. But to those of us observing your writings on this matter, we're simply thinking:

"He doesn't see how consciousness is contained and originates within the brain and is therefore convinced in isn't so."

Pure argument from incredulity.

There is no need to model Li

You will soon be spending time in one as it drives you around and yes it will be self aware in additional to aware, just as other robots are now. It's all a spectrum just as it is with other organisms which also show self awareness in addition to consciousness.

Studies have been done mainly on primates to test if self-awareness is present. Apes, monkeys, elephants, and dolphins have been studied most frequently. The most relevant studies to this day that represent self-awareness in animals have been done on chimpanzees, dolphins, and magpies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

Modeling and/or creating a neural net, be it human or rate is a moving progression of human knowledge and engineering. Lose the fantasy about magic and enjoy the wonder of what an emergent human mind can accomplish ...even yours if you lose the nonsense.
Join the rest of the intelligences on earth ....instead of invoking some nonsense about "special".

My older brother had a deep pressure sore on his bottom due to his advanced MS and inability to move. It smelled like death. It looked like it should hurt but he felt no pain.

You can have extensive injury without pain. And some of the sharpest pain comes from minor injuries like paper cut and tooth ache. It doesn't follow that bodily injury entails pain. Consciousness leads to pain. Anaesthetic works by Preventing consciousness either by causing total unconsciousness or local numbness.

Andrew4Handel wrote:You can have extensive injury without pain. And some of the sharpest pain comes from minor injuries like paper cut and tooth ache. It doesn't follow that bodily injury entails pain. Consciousness leads to pain. Anaesthetic works by Preventing consciousness either by causing total unconsciousness or local numbness.

No.

You should probably look up how anaesthetic works before making such silly statements.

Andrew4Handel wrote:My older brother had a deep pressure sore on his bottom due to his advanced MS and inability to move. It smelled like death. It looked like it should hurt but he felt no pain.

You can have extensive injury without pain. And some of the sharpest pain comes from minor injuries like paper cut and tooth ache. It doesn't follow that bodily injury entails pain. Consciousness leads to pain. Anaesthetic works by Preventing consciousness either by causing total unconsciousness or local numbness.

Perhaps you or another inclined towards idealism can give an idealism-based explanation of how neurochemical agents (general anaesthetics) suspend consciousness, or indeed how an idealism-based understanding of consciousness would allow the development of non-neurochemical anaesthetic methods.

This one time, I drank too much vodka, and I woke up on somebody's kitchen floor. It was really comfortable, despite being a hard surface. Usually, I like to lie on soft surfaces, like a sofa or bed, yet, somehow, my consciousness allowed me lie there without any discomfort at all. Later, I was a bit pale and sick, and I threw up in the toilet. Explain that, physicalists.

Andrew4Handel wrote:My older brother had a deep pressure sore on his bottom due to his advanced MS and inability to move. It smelled like death. It looked like it should hurt but he felt no pain.
You can have extensive injury without pain. And some of the sharpest pain comes from minor injuries like paper cut and tooth ache. It doesn't follow that bodily injury entails pain. Consciousness leads to pain. Anaesthetic works by Preventing consciousness either by causing total unconsciousness or local numbness.

You're right insofar as tissue damage needn't be accompanied by felt pain, and felt pain needn't be accompanied by tissue damage. For example, depression can really hurt without there being any physical injury.

LucidFlight wrote:This one time, I drank too much vodka, and I woke up on somebody's kitchen floor. It was really comfortable, despite being a hard surface. Usually, I like to lie on soft surfaces, like a sofa or bed, yet, somehow, my consciousness allowed me lie there without any discomfort at all. Later, I was a bit pale and sick, and I threw up in the toilet. Explain that, physicalists.

You were never on the floor. Courtesy of inebriation, you mistook the chequered bed-linen for a tiled floor.
In a well marinated lush seasoned drinker, pallor and nausea are never attributable to liquor. Those effects are evidence of a glitch in the Matrix.

LucidFlight wrote:This one time, I drank too much vodka, and I woke up on somebody's kitchen floor. It was really comfortable, despite being a hard surface. Usually, I like to lie on soft surfaces, like a sofa or bed, yet, somehow, my consciousness allowed me lie there without any discomfort at all. Later, I was a bit pale and sick, and I threw up in the toilet. Explain that, physicalists.

Oh, My, Goodness! Lucid Flight.
I thought they'd banned you for life plus ten years. I took a few years off, and just dropped back in to say 'hi.' Somehow found myself explaining really real, you know Real over on another thread. You know how it is.

Same old shit as I always had, just bit more organised now.

So your still in Scotland? How's life? What cha doing? etc etc

Macdoc wrote:There is no need to model Li

You will soon be spending time in one as it drives you around and yes it will be self aware in additional to aware, just as other robots are now. It's all a spectrum just as it is with other organisms which also show self awareness in addition to consciousness.

Studies have been done mainly on primates to test if self-awareness is present. Apes, monkeys, elephants, and dolphins have been studied most frequently. The most relevant studies to this day that represent self-awareness in animals have been done on chimpanzees, dolphins, and magpies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

Modeling and/or creating a neural net, be it human or rate is a moving progression of human knowledge and engineering. Lose the fantasy about magic and enjoy the wonder of what an emergent human mind can accomplish ...even yours if you lose the nonsense.
Join the rest of the intelligences on earth ....instead of invoking some nonsense about "special".

Excellent post Macdoc, best I've seen from you. (which is not to say I've seen all your posts or what ever)

Macdoc wrote:There is no need to model Li

You will soon be spending time in one as it drives you around and yes it will be self aware in additional to aware, just as other robots are now. It's all a spectrum just as it is with other organisms which also show self awareness in addition to consciousness.

Studies have been done mainly on primates to test if self-awareness is present. Apes, monkeys, elephants, and dolphins have been studied most frequently. The most relevant studies to this day that represent self-awareness in animals have been done on chimpanzees, dolphins, and magpies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

Modeling and/or creating a neural net, be it human or rate is a moving progression of human knowledge and engineering. Lose the fantasy about magic and enjoy the wonder of what an emergent human mind can accomplish ...even yours if you lose the nonsense.
Join the rest of the intelligences on earth ....instead of invoking some nonsense about "special".

Yes some are 'getting it.' If only we could get the idiotic philosophers to shut up.

Little Idiot wrote:

LucidFlight wrote:This one time, I drank too much vodka, and I woke up on somebody's kitchen floor. It was really comfortable, despite being a hard surface. Usually, I like to lie on soft surfaces, like a sofa or bed, yet, somehow, my consciousness allowed me lie there without any discomfort at all. Later, I was a bit pale and sick, and I threw up in the toilet. Explain that, physicalists.

Oh, My, Goodness! Lucid Flight.
I thought they'd banned you for life plus ten years. I took a few years off, and just dropped back in to say 'hi.' Somehow found myself explaining really real, you know Real over on another thread. You know how it is.

Same old shit as I always had, just bit more organised now.

So your still in Scotland? How's life? What cha doing? etc etc

Aye, back in Scotland (as presented by the World Mind) for a year now. Feeling a lot more healthy being out of the observed tropical heat and air-conditioning. Nice to see observed cows and observed sheep in the observed fields again. Doing the usual advertising and design stuff. You know how it is

LucidFlight wrote:This one time, I drank too much vodka, and I woke up on somebody's kitchen floor. It was really comfortable, despite being a hard surface. Usually, I like to lie on soft surfaces, like a sofa or bed, yet, somehow, my consciousness allowed me lie there without any discomfort at all. Later, I was a bit pale and sick, and I threw up in the toilet. Explain that, physicalists.

I'm sceptical.

How do you know you drank vodka. Surely all you can say is that you remember observing drinking observed vodka?

We've never really observed someone drinking vodka before, it's merely been inferred by seeing a person put the bottle to their lips. Correlation not causation, people!

Well, to be fair, correlation is causation, because we can't tell causation from anything else, only very specific correlations.

I contend that the correlation between observed vodka and Lucid Flight's unconsciousness implies that Lucid Flight is, in reality, drinking gin. This is in line with my previous posts about gin and consciousness.