Free Will

on fundamental matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and ethics.

Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron

Re: Free Will

#4701  Postby GrahamH » Jan 16, 2017 10:06 am

ughaibu wrote:Now, if the behaviour of human beings is determined such that they "couldn't do otherwise", then at the start of the experiment there is only one action, that the researcher can perform, in the pair 1. write "decay occurred" or 2. write "decay didn't occur". But as the experimental setup is not determined such that the result "couldn't [be] otherwise", the probability of the researcher making the correct recording of the result is one half. If this is what is happening, then researchers are chronically deluded to the extent of being mistaken in at least half of their records and thus we have no empirical basis for science.


:o

Is that an attempt at humour, or do you think that gibberish is remotely rational?

To state the incredibly obvious, if human behaviour is determined by prevailing circumstances the behaviour of recording a result can be determined by that result, among other factors.

You seem to have in mind some sort of 'fate' divorced from the world. The issue of physics determining behaviour is that physics determines behaviour, so there is no conflict with scientific experiment and science has no tools to detect free will, or not.

What science can do is uncover some of the causal mechanisms that relate the physics to the subjective experience of choosing

ughaibu wrote:On the other hand, it's not just that we cannot accept that researchers are mostly mistaken about phenomena and thus their behaviour is not determined by some species of pseudo-determinism limited to the so called "macro world", we also require that researchers correctly record their observations on almost all occasions. But that means they must correctly record their observations with a probability of almost one, in short, their behaviour cannot be random or any matter of chance, it must be behaviour controlled by themselves.


It is bizarre that you would offer an example of researchers reliably doing what physics tells them as an example of free will.
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20419

Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4702  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 16, 2017 12:33 pm

romansh wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:
romansh wrote:How do we change the aggregate of the quantum phenomena that is occurring now?

The aggregate is indeterminate anyway. Rather, it's probabilistic.

You did not answer my question ... I know the current theory it is probabilistic ... I even left a nice Hawking/Mlodinow quote for you.
So you don't change this probabilistic aggregate in this moment? Or if you do, how do you do it?

Probability distribution functions aren't deterministic in any case, so there is no need to change them, OK?
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 70
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4703  Postby romansh » Jan 16, 2017 2:50 pm

ughaibu wrote:[
1) the only things that are real are things that Romansh can see a mechanism for
2) Romansh cannot see a mechanism for free will
3) therefore, free will is not one of the things that are real.


1) note I don't have to understand that mechanism, I just have to have some evidence for it.
2) I cannot see mechanisms for lots of things ... invisible massless fairies for instance
3) therefore while I can't say these fairies are not real, I do hold back my belief in them.

A mechanism for free will? Is that not an in incoherent notion? Mechanistically set free will?

So that as you suggest leaves us with strong free will of the libertarian flavour.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
User avatar
romansh
 
Posts: 3188

Country: BC Can (in the woods)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4704  Postby ughaibu » Jan 16, 2017 3:15 pm

romansh wrote:I don't have to understand that mechanism, I just have to have some evidence for it.
A mechanism for free will? Is that not an in incoherent notion? Mechanistically set free will?
If you think that there can be no mechanism for free will, then you won't find any evidence for a mechanism, will you?
The question remains, why on earth do you think that the metaphysical fact, that there is or isn't free will, depends on the epistemic fact, that human beings can correctly identify the mechanism by which free will functions? As far as I can tell, how the world is, is independent of what human beings understand of it and the reality of a thing is not brought about by human beings agreeing on the mechanism by which the thing concerned works.
By the way, I assume you're aware that there are various theories as to how free will works, both compatibilist and incompatibilst.
romansh wrote:invisible massless fairies for instance
Isn't it true that you can function without assuming the reality of invisible massless fairies and that your actions don't consistently demonstrate the reliability of the assumption that there really are invisible massless fairies, hundreds of times every day? On the other hand, you cannot function without assuming the reality of free will and you consistently demonstrate the reliability of that assumption hundreds of times every day. This actually gives you stronger warrant to accept the reality of free will than you have to accept the reality of gravity, because if you were in outer space, you wouldn't demonstrate the reliability of the assumption that there is gravity. Certainly you can get through life without assuming the reality of evolution or global warming, and how often do you demonstrate the reliability of assuming the reality of these things? So, denying the reality of free will is far less warranted than denying the reality of evolution or of global warming, yet on this board there is a conspicuous number of free will deniers who wouldn't dream of denying the reality of evolution or global warming. It is completely bizarre.
ughaibu
 
Posts: 4391

Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4705  Postby archibald » Jan 16, 2017 3:35 pm

ughaibu wrote:
romansh wrote:I don't have to understand that mechanism, I just have to have some evidence for it.
A mechanism for free will? Is that not an in incoherent notion? Mechanistically set free will?
If you think that there can be no mechanism for free will, then you won't find any evidence for a mechanism, will you?
The question remains, why on earth do you think that the metaphysical fact, that there is or isn't free will, depends on the epistemic fact, that human beings can correctly identify the mechanism by which free will functions? As far as I can tell, how the world is, is independent of what human beings understand of it and the reality of a thing is not brought about by human beings agreeing on the mechanism by which the thing concerned works.
By the way, I assume you're aware that there are various theories as to how free will works, both compatibilist and incompatibilst.
romansh wrote:invisible massless fairies for instance
Isn't it true that you can function without assuming the reality of invisible massless fairies and that your actions don't consistently demonstrate the reliability of the assumption that there really are invisible massless fairies, hundreds of times every day? On the other hand, you cannot function without assuming the reality of free will and you consistently demonstrate the reliability of that assumption hundreds of times every day. This actually gives you stronger warrant to accept the reality of free will than you have to accept the reality of gravity, because if you were in outer space, you wouldn't demonstrate the reliability of the assumption that there is gravity. Certainly you can get through life without assuming the reality of evolution or global warming, and how often do you demonstrate the reliability of assuming the reality of these things? So, denying the reality of free will is far less warranted than denying the reality of evolution or of global warming, yet on this board there is a conspicuous number of free will deniers who wouldn't dream of denying the reality of evolution or global warming. It is completely bizarre.


That's quite a long post. Surely, 'no I can't explain how there could be free will' would have taken a lot less time to type? :ask:
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
(John Platko)
archibald
 
Posts: 10311
Male

Country: Northern Ireland
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4706  Postby GrahamH » Jan 16, 2017 3:43 pm

I'm sure there are people who function well enough day to day under the delusion that God determines thiere every choice. There are fatalists that think their every choice is predetermined. We can imagine any number of fantasy scenarios where people have experiences they take to free, or in-free will and function just as well. Since nnobody ever knows exactly why they think their particular thoughts when they do nobody has any solid subjective proof that they have free will. It's not a necessary assumption. This insistence that a philosophical puzzle that has run for millennia is as utterly vacuous as ughaibu suggests is completely bizarre. It basically amounts to "do you think you have free will?" - "yes" - "then you do".
:crazy:
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20419

Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4707  Postby archibald » Jan 16, 2017 5:00 pm

GrahamH wrote: It basically amounts to "do you think you have free will?" - "yes" - "then you do".


At last, a suggested mechanism. Now all we have to do is try to tease apart the details.
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
(John Platko)
archibald
 
Posts: 10311
Male

Country: Northern Ireland
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4708  Postby GrahamH » Jan 16, 2017 6:37 pm

archibald wrote:
GrahamH wrote: It basically amounts to "do you think you have free will?" - "yes" - "then you do".


At last, a suggested mechanism. Now all we have to do is try to tease apart the details.


There are no details. I't's faith. You have to assume it, you just have to! Otherwise someone might bruise their massive ego.
And we can see it's easy to so. Just define it as a way that ignores all the contentious issues and assume that having experience is making it happen all on your own like a little shining font of magicsparkles.
Why do you think that?
GrahamH
 
Posts: 20419

Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4709  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 17, 2017 11:22 am

A different way of looking at it is that ideas for action may come out of the unconscious, but the conscious mind has a veto over any action, unless it is coerced or drugged, or there is insufficient time to consider it (ie, an emergency). Therefore biological will (as opposed to non-sensical free will that's free of the laws of physics, etc).
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 70
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4710  Postby archibald » Jan 17, 2017 11:32 am

If there is such a process, I can't see how it isn't automatic.
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
(John Platko)
archibald
 
Posts: 10311
Male

Country: Northern Ireland
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4711  Postby LucidFlight » Jan 17, 2017 11:40 am

DavidMcC, can you explain more about the process of the conscious veto?
OFFICIAL MEMBER: QUANTUM CONSTRUCTOR CONSCIOUSNESS QUALIA KOALA COLLECTIVE.
User avatar
LucidFlight
RS Donator
 
Name: Kento
Posts: 10805
Male

Country: UK/US/AU/SG
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4712  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 17, 2017 12:03 pm

LucidFlight wrote:DavidMcC, can you explain more about the process of the conscious veto?

Sure. It's basically having second thoughts about an idea, before you get to act on it. You know - something that seemed like a good idea at first, but which you came to reaise had problems when you thought it through properly.
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 70
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4713  Postby LucidFlight » Jan 17, 2017 12:06 pm

DavidMcC wrote:
LucidFlight wrote:DavidMcC, can you explain more about the process of the conscious veto?

Sure. It's basically having second thoughts about an idea, before you get to act on it. You know - something that seemed like a good idea at first, but which you came to reaise had problems when you thought it through properly.

And what makes you have a second thought about something? Can you give us some detail about the process of having a second thought?
OFFICIAL MEMBER: QUANTUM CONSTRUCTOR CONSCIOUSNESS QUALIA KOALA COLLECTIVE.
User avatar
LucidFlight
RS Donator
 
Name: Kento
Posts: 10805
Male

Country: UK/US/AU/SG
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4714  Postby archibald » Jan 17, 2017 12:08 pm

And who's the 'you'? :)
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
(John Platko)
archibald
 
Posts: 10311
Male

Country: Northern Ireland
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4715  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 17, 2017 1:33 pm

Taking your question as serious, it's probably a further idea popping out of the unconscious into the conscious that triggers the second thought.
There is no doubt that there is plenty of unconscious brain activity, but it doesn't control your conscious mind unless you let it (by acting on impulse, say). Normally, it only informs it, and even then not necessarily.
Having said that, there are occasions when your actions are controlled by your unconscious, such as during sleep-walkimg. This is something I personally very rarely do, but have on about two occasions in my whole life. I suspect that they occured when I was half asleep, not fully, so that I still had some control of my muscles and my eyes were open. I had a limited capacity for thought, so I did not fully understand what I was doing.

I would not say that I had a fully free will during those times.
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 70
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4716  Postby archibald » Jan 17, 2017 1:35 pm

DavidMcC wrote:.... unless you let it.....

(my bold)

Cue theme music from The Twilight Zone. :)

Sorry David, no offense, but you don't seem to be doing anything more than restating Graham's mechanism:

GrahamH wrote: It basically amounts to "do you think you have free will?" - "yes" - "then you do".
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
(John Platko)
archibald
 
Posts: 10311
Male

Country: Northern Ireland
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4717  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 17, 2017 1:39 pm

... I should add that, for some reason, I only ever sleep-walked when staying overnight with some acquaintance or other. However, the behaviour was none-the-less unintentional.
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 70
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4718  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 17, 2017 1:44 pm

archibald wrote:
DavidMcC wrote:.... unless you let it.....

(my bold)

Cue theme music from The Twilight Zone. :)

Sorry David, no offense, but you don't seem to be doing anything more than restating Graham's mechanism:

GrahamH wrote: It basically amounts to "do you think you have free will?" - "yes" - "then you do".

archibald wrote:If there is such a process, I can't see how it isn't automatic.

It is not automatic, in the sense that it only happens when the unconscious happens to find some other nugget of forgotten memory. However, itIS automatic in the sense that you can't decide whether a second thought is going to happen.
EDIT: It may start in a way that you might call "automatic" (as a further idea popping into the conscious mind), but it still involves conscious thought if it is to result in any action, because it has to be evaluated consciously.
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 70
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4719  Postby archibald » Jan 17, 2017 1:56 pm

How does the conscious pre-decision evaluation (temporarily assuming there is any) take place anything other than automatically though?
"It seems rather obvious that plants have free will. Don't know why that would be controversial."
(John Platko)
archibald
 
Posts: 10311
Male

Country: Northern Ireland
Print view this post

Re: Free Will

#4720  Postby DavidMcC » Jan 17, 2017 1:59 pm

Actually, although Graham probably thinks that "merely" thinking that you have free will does not mean that you actually have free will only applies when your mind is being controlled by someone else (ie, externally controlled, which I am not sure is possible yet). IMO, if it is controlled by you (ie internally) and you are not under the influence of mind-controlling drugs, and not under duress , then it is necessarily your own free will. I'm sure Graham will disagree, but that does not make him correct.
May The Voice be with you!
DavidMcC
 
Name: David McCulloch
Posts: 14913
Age: 70
Male

Country: United Kigdom
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 6 guests